#033 Gilian Crowther - The Hidden Cause of Chronic Illness: Mitochondria & The Cell Danger Response
GILIAN CROWTHER MA (Oxon), FBANT, mANP, mNNA, CNHC reg., is a fully qualified Nutritional Therapist and Naturopath specialising in complex multisystem disorders. Her key focus is on infectious pathologies and mitochondrial dysfunction. She studied complementary therapy in Germany for many years before completing her training in the UK. She has been a senior member of the Academy of Nutritional Medicine (www.aonm.org) since 2010, and is their Director of Research. She is a committee member of the General Naturopathic Council (GNC) as well as the British Society for Ecological Medicine (BSEM).
> During our discussion, you’ll discover:
(00:04:52) Understanding mitochondria
(00:09:23) Why mitochondria is important for hormones
(00:14:03) How and why mitochondria become dysfunctional
(00:17:20) The effects of stress throughout the body
(00:20:41) Understanding the Cell Danger Response (CDR)
(00:36:38) Epigenetic changes
(00:40:12) Mitochondrial tests
(00:44:22) Dietary Approaches and Mitochondrial Health
(00:52:16) The Role of Light and Environment in Mitochondrial Health
(00:58:07) Future of Mitochondrial Medicine
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Transcript
Welcome to the VP Life Podcast, the show
Speaker:where we bring you actionable health
Speaker:advice from eating minds.
Speaker:I'm your host, Rob.
Speaker:And my guest today is Gillian Crowther, a
Speaker:functional nutritional
Speaker:therapist and medical researcher.
Speaker:Gillian has a passion for all things
Speaker:mitochondria and heads up research at the
Speaker:Academy of Nutritional Medicine, UK's
Speaker:leading provider of advanced
Speaker:mitochondrial and cellular tests.
Speaker:Expect to learn how
Speaker:mitochondria actually function?
Speaker:What the cell danger response actually is
Speaker:and whether or not Prignell alone steel
Speaker:is based in science or is
Speaker:a functional medicine myth.
Speaker:Now onto the
Speaker:conversation with Gillian Crowther.
Speaker:Morning Gillian, it's great to have you
Speaker:on the podcast today.
Speaker:So this is something that's come up a lot
Speaker:of my conversations recently, the cell
Speaker:danger response, I mean, which is
Speaker:something I know will be just, which is
Speaker:something I know we'll be discussing
Speaker:during our conversation today.
Speaker:Before we get into the nitty gritty of
Speaker:that though, would you mind introducing
Speaker:yourself to the audience and how you
Speaker:ended up in this sort of world of
Speaker:functional nutrition,
Speaker:one might say, naturopathy?
Speaker:I'll get that word
Speaker:right one of these days.
Speaker:But yeah, just your intro to
Speaker:all of this would be amazing.
Speaker:Thank you so much.
Speaker:Well, thank you for having me here today.
Speaker:And I'm delighted to talk about one of
Speaker:the topics closest to my heart.
Speaker:I suppose, you know, it began with
Speaker:studying herbalism when I
Speaker:was very young, about 20,
Speaker:straight out of the university.
Speaker:And then I spent a lot
Speaker:of my life in Germany.
Speaker:My husband as a doctor was working in a
Speaker:very sort of holistic field there.
Speaker:And so I came into contact with many,
Speaker:many wonderful doctors and began studying
Speaker:the mitochondria with a group of
Speaker:naturopaths and doctors there in great
Speaker:detail, probably about 21 years ago.
Speaker:And the Cell Symbiosis Academy, with
Speaker:which I was working, was very active.
Speaker:It's no longer really in existence.
Speaker:Unfortunately, some of the key doctors
Speaker:running it have sort of retired now.
Speaker:But when I came back to England, I
Speaker:continued my studies and certified as a
Speaker:nutritional therapist and naturopath and
Speaker:found myself working together with the
Speaker:Academy of Nutritional Medicine, where I
Speaker:still am, about 15 years ago.
Speaker:I'm now the director of research and we
Speaker:run a lot of fascinating niche tests,
Speaker:tests that nobody else is running really,
Speaker:like very specific ways to detect stealth
Speaker:infections and mitochondrial tests, which
Speaker:are really unique worldwide, actually,
Speaker:and tests of autoimmune encephalopathy.
Speaker:Quite a few different kinds.
Speaker:I won't go through them all.
Speaker:We also organize events and webinars and
Speaker:do a lot of sort of cross pollination.
Speaker:We link up a lot of different
Speaker:organizations as best we can and hope
Speaker:that they'll speak to each other and
Speaker:exchange information.
Speaker:And that's sort of our mission, really.
Speaker:That's quite the story.
Speaker:And I suppose having a husband who's
Speaker:already in the sort of the alternative
Speaker:world, for the want of a better word,
Speaker:probably opened your eyes up to a lot of
Speaker:maybe where conventional medicine maybe
Speaker:doesn't work, perhaps.
Speaker:You said you started off in herbalism
Speaker:straight out of uni and
Speaker:then you went into nutrition.
Speaker:Were you at university initially for
Speaker:anything medical or
Speaker:what was your story there?
Speaker:No, I attended Oxford University,
Speaker:Bresnose College and
Speaker:actually studied German and history.
Speaker:So no, it's a slightly different area,
Speaker:but I found I moved into sort of
Speaker:health-renated topics
Speaker:quite quickly after that.
Speaker:Okay, fair enough.
Speaker:Sorry, I hope you don't mind me asking.
Speaker:I'm just sort of fascinated by people's
Speaker:backstories and how they
Speaker:sort of end up where they are.
Speaker:Yeah, no, it's the AONM is something I've
Speaker:been sort of looking at on and off for a
Speaker:while, especially your mitochondrial
Speaker:tests, as you say, they are
Speaker:very unique and intriguing.
Speaker:However, I'm not going to go down that
Speaker:road at all because I've sworn to myself
Speaker:to try and keep on today's topic of
Speaker:conversation trying
Speaker:in the operative word.
Speaker:So yeah.
Speaker:So the cell danger response, as I
Speaker:mentioned earlier, this is something I'm
Speaker:fascinated by because, well, for me
Speaker:anyway, it's really arguably the lowest
Speaker:common denominator when you comes to talk
Speaker:about disease in general.
Speaker:Obviously, I know that's a bit of a
Speaker:blanket statement and it does skew
Speaker:towards more diseases that have the sort
Speaker:of cellular metabolic
Speaker:dysfunction and origin.
Speaker:But I do think it opens a lot of doors to
Speaker:view disease that we've made the sleep
Speaker:that had been previously shut off,
Speaker:the idea that we can sort of look at
Speaker:disease broadly
Speaker:speaking through this CDR lens.
Speaker:Before we jump into CDR specifically,
Speaker:though, I'd like to backtrack just a
Speaker:little bit and maybe discuss
Speaker:mitochondria for a little while.
Speaker:I know most folks are likely familiar
Speaker:with these little organelles, these sort
Speaker:of cellular components, in that they are
Speaker:that they really help produce energy in
Speaker:the form of ATP within the
Speaker:cell and within the body.
Speaker:However, they do a lot more than that.
Speaker:And while we won't have a whole
Speaker:discussion about mitochondria, I'd love
Speaker:to talk about maybe how they're involved
Speaker:in the endocrine system or later on in
Speaker:the conversation as well.
Speaker:But at a baseline level, can you describe
Speaker:what mitochondria are and
Speaker:what they do in the body?
Speaker:Yeah, maybe asides from
Speaker:just creating cellular energy.
Speaker:Yes, well, they originated from bacteria.
Speaker:And then there was an endosymbiosis event
Speaker:where this sort of cyanobacteria and
Speaker:archaea joined up and were able to
Speaker:produce a lot more energy.
Speaker:That way, it's a bit of a complex story,
Speaker:but absolutely fascinating.
Speaker:And they're responsible for, as you say,
Speaker:a lot more than just our energy, though
Speaker:they are considered to be the sort of
Speaker:power plants of the cell.
Speaker:They're responsible for nutrient sensing
Speaker:and energy metabolism.
Speaker:That's really the sort
Speaker:of bioenergetics sphere.
Speaker:And then also for biosynthesis, they
Speaker:synthesize a lot of molecules.
Speaker:For example, heme is synthesized largely
Speaker:in the mitochondria.
Speaker:And if they're down, then you'll have a
Speaker:lot of issues with heme production.
Speaker:Cholesterol is cleaved in the inner
Speaker:mitochondrial membrane.
Speaker:And so without proper operation of the
Speaker:mitochondria, you'll find that you don't
Speaker:get the steroid hormones downstream that
Speaker:you need in the proper order.
Speaker:It's also responsible for signaling.
Speaker:And the ROS, the reactive oxygen species,
Speaker:very much have their
Speaker:role to play as well.
Speaker:Oxidative shielding is what Dr.
Speaker:Navio from the CDR field that we'll be
Speaker:talking about soon actually calls it,
Speaker:rather than oxidative damage.
Speaker:That it's shielding that these reactive
Speaker:oxygen species are
Speaker:providing as well as signaling.
Speaker:A lot of cell to cell communication takes
Speaker:place via the mitochondria, too.
Speaker:And they're also able to form chains.
Speaker:And it's fission as well as fusion.
Speaker:They're not just sausage shapes.
Speaker:They can actually transfer
Speaker:electrons from one to another.
Speaker:They migrate to different organs,
Speaker:different parts of the body where more
Speaker:energy is needed and
Speaker:multiply as required.
Speaker:So they're very, very
Speaker:intelligent little beings.
Speaker:I call them sort of our biochips.
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, all sorts of jokes aside, I
Speaker:mean, if you'd said that a couple of
Speaker:years ago, you probably would have gone
Speaker:into trouble talking about chips in your
Speaker:cells and all of that.
Speaker:But, yeah, I think what I'd love to jump
Speaker:down with the rabbit hole there that I'd
Speaker:maybe like to explore a bit further is
Speaker:maybe the hormonal connection.
Speaker:So we had Dr.
Speaker:Eric Belkowicz from the States on a few
Speaker:months back to talk about thyroid.
Speaker:And he's very focused on treating the
Speaker:thyroid and the endotransystem in general
Speaker:and dysfunction there from a
Speaker:pharmatic control standpoint.
Speaker:And, yeah, that sort of got me down the
Speaker:thyroid mitochondrial rabbit hole, which
Speaker:maybe we can touch on later as well.
Speaker:But it does raise the question of of what
Speaker:you really pointed to earlier, this idea
Speaker:that mitochondria take and
Speaker:let me see if I got this right.
Speaker:They take cholesterol and they help turn
Speaker:it into pregnenolone.
Speaker:That's right.
Speaker:And that whole sort of
Speaker:steroid cascade there.
Speaker:Would you mind breaking this process down
Speaker:a little more for us?
Speaker:Because I do think it's quite fundamental
Speaker:to not only our discussion, but also to a
Speaker:sort of a broader discussion on why
Speaker:people maybe don't necessarily react as
Speaker:well to hormonal replacement therapy as
Speaker:they think they would if they've got sort
Speaker:of a mitochondrial issue.
Speaker:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker:It's the cholesterol side cleavage enzyme
Speaker:called the P450CC that converts
Speaker:cholesterol into pregnenolone and that
Speaker:takes place in the inner
Speaker:mitochondrial membrane.
Speaker:And if your mitochondria are
Speaker:dysfunctional, then obviously that will
Speaker:not be happening as well as it should.
Speaker:Obviously, it's not going to
Speaker:break down all over the body.
Speaker:But depending on where the dysfunction is
Speaker:taking place, you'll find that you don't
Speaker:make your steroid
Speaker:hormones as well as you should.
Speaker:And obviously, that's
Speaker:that's a large number.
Speaker:So I totally agree with you that if
Speaker:you're using bioidentical or even non
Speaker:bioidentical hormone therapy, that might
Speaker:well be a reason why it's just not
Speaker:getting into that cascade and simply not
Speaker:functioning if you've got the
Speaker:mitochondrial dysfunction underlying it.
Speaker:Yeah, it's it's it's definitely something
Speaker:that I think a lot of individuals and
Speaker:practitioners like miss that that
Speaker:hormonal function is always sort of at
Speaker:least from a mitochondrial
Speaker:standpoint in the way I view it.
Speaker:And feel free to correct
Speaker:me if you if you see fit.
Speaker:It's always sort of the last piece of the
Speaker:puzzle to really come into play.
Speaker:And I think lots of people will
Speaker:oftentimes jump into HRT and then sort of
Speaker:still be sort of upset, surprised, sort
Speaker:of unhappy about the fact that they still
Speaker:got a lot of the symptoms that they they
Speaker:currently have because they've been told
Speaker:that their issues are just hormonal.
Speaker:When in fact, it's it's a mitochondrial
Speaker:issue that has
Speaker:manifested as a hormonal issue.
Speaker:And yeah, I just one more
Speaker:question there while we're at it.
Speaker:What do you think about this idea of
Speaker:pregnant alone, pregnant, no, no, no, no.
Speaker:Excuse me, I'll get that word right.
Speaker:One of these days, I know it's it's often
Speaker:taught in sort of the
Speaker:functional integrative space.
Speaker:It's something I don't agree with this
Speaker:idea that you only have a
Speaker:certain amount of pregnant alone.
Speaker:And if you use and if you take pregnant
Speaker:alone, it's going to be maybe buffered
Speaker:towards one or another type of hormone.
Speaker:When in reality, the way I view it is
Speaker:that each cell, each cell is obviously
Speaker:going to contain mitochondria and that's
Speaker:going to be specific to each
Speaker:organ system or gland system.
Speaker:So the way I view it is that pregnant
Speaker:alone actually can't be stolen because
Speaker:it's always been made.
Speaker:It's been made locally within the the
Speaker:group of tissues that it's been utilized
Speaker:in by those mitochondria.
Speaker:Would you agree with that?
Speaker:Or do you think that this concept of
Speaker:pregnant alone still is real?
Speaker:No, I do completely agree with you.
Speaker:And it's fascinating actually to see
Speaker:sometimes how high cholesterol in the
Speaker:serum, which is the only place it's ever
Speaker:measured, is often actually due to the
Speaker:mitochondrial dysfunction that we're
Speaker:talking about and the fact that the
Speaker:pregnant alone isn't being converted.
Speaker:And therefore, you're getting this
Speaker:buildup of cholesterol outside the cells
Speaker:in the serum and that's being measured.
Speaker:And you're getting alarm signals and
Speaker:actually the
Speaker:ramifications go far, far deeper.
Speaker:Yeah, no, it's something it's it's yeah.
Speaker:Like I said, I think a lot of people have
Speaker:a lot of opinions about
Speaker:it and I'm just a chemist.
Speaker:So it's always great to hear this from
Speaker:someone who's in clinical practice and
Speaker:who sees this in the real world apart
Speaker:from me just trying to piece these parts
Speaker:of the puzzle together and wondering if
Speaker:I'm missing something or not.
Speaker:OK, I'd love to sort of start to maybe
Speaker:steer the conversation towards CDR and
Speaker:where mitochondrial function CDR and
Speaker:maybe why we have
Speaker:dysfunctional mitochondria.
Speaker:But before we get into that, maybe maybe
Speaker:if we could explore why mitochondrial
Speaker:become dysfunctional to begin with.
Speaker:Now, I know there's a lot to unpack there
Speaker:again and that mitochondria can be made
Speaker:dysfunctional or become dysfunctional for
Speaker:a number of reasons.
Speaker:Infections, high levels of the toxic
Speaker:exposure, et cetera.
Speaker:And with regards to the latter, if anyone
Speaker:really is interested in toxic exposure, I
Speaker:invite them to listen to the podcast,
Speaker:excuse me, that we did with Dr.
Speaker:Jenny Goodman a few months back.
Speaker:It was really was a good listen,
Speaker:a good conversation, should I say.
Speaker:But from your perspective and clinically
Speaker:speaking, I suppose, which is really what
Speaker:counts at the end of the day, what are
Speaker:you finding to be the biggest triggers
Speaker:with regards to why mitochondria are
Speaker:becoming dysfunctional to begin with?
Speaker:Well, I mean, it falls into several
Speaker:categories, biological, as you've just
Speaker:mentioned, in the bacteria, the viruses,
Speaker:parasites, fungi and then chemical,
Speaker:particularly electrophilic chemicals due
Speaker:to the energy systems in the cell.
Speaker:You know, lyndane and all the different
Speaker:sort of chemical additives and metals as
Speaker:well, heavy metals, lead and cadmium and
Speaker:things like glyphosate
Speaker:fall into that category.
Speaker:Absolutely as well.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:OK.
Speaker:And then, of course,
Speaker:psychological slash emotional, which
Speaker:converts into physiological stress, too.
Speaker:So it stresses all these different kinds.
Speaker:And then, of course, metabolic stress, if
Speaker:any pathways are not working properly due
Speaker:to lack of cofactors.
Speaker:And that's a very important stress, too.
Speaker:So the stresses along those, I would say,
Speaker:four different pathways, biological,
Speaker:chemical, metabolic and
Speaker:physiological slash emotional.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And can I just add one more?
Speaker:Which, of course, we've suddenly
Speaker:encountered these last five years, which
Speaker:is SARS-CoV-2 virus and the spike protein
Speaker:is able to fragment the mitochondria.
Speaker:And that's very, very serious.
Speaker:And it also prevents apoptosis in a much
Speaker:more intense way than other viruses that
Speaker:we've seen previously.
Speaker:And so apoptosis being pre-programmed
Speaker:cell death, is that correct?
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:And so the lysosome and phagosome are
Speaker:unable to link up as they should and sort
Speaker:of get rid of the
Speaker:dysfunctional cells and mitochondria.
Speaker:And that's really very, very serious
Speaker:indeed, making it very
Speaker:difficult for people to recover.
Speaker:It's being called long covid, whatever
Speaker:the condition actually is.
Speaker:Yeah, we interviewed Dr.
Speaker:Tina Peirce and she's got a she
Speaker:definitely looks at the whole long covid
Speaker:thing from a mast cell standpoint
Speaker:specifically, which I
Speaker:do think is interesting.
Speaker:I'm not sure it's the entire picture, but
Speaker:for a lot of people, I think, yeah, long
Speaker:covid definitely seems to drive sort of
Speaker:an exacerbated histamine response.
Speaker:And I've actually got a
Speaker:question on that on that later.
Speaker:But I do find it interesting that you
Speaker:raised the whole
Speaker:psychological side of things well.
Speaker:I think what, again, most people miss is
Speaker:that stress is stress and everybody's
Speaker:always looking for some sort of broadly
Speaker:speaking external trigger, I think.
Speaker:Somebody's looking for an infection as to
Speaker:why they have the ailments they have or
Speaker:they are looking at some sort of
Speaker:underlying toxic exposure.
Speaker:And I think what most people miss,
Speaker:unfortunately, is that ultimately the
Speaker:body is going to take all that stress at
Speaker:some level and it is going to be that
Speaker:sympathetic or that final flat response
Speaker:in the body, which is then going to drive
Speaker:all those transcription factors and
Speaker:pro-inflammatory pathways, which then is
Speaker:going to drive that mitochondrial
Speaker:dysfunction at the level of CDI, as we
Speaker:will discuss shortly.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:I work quite closely with Dr.
Speaker:Dietrich Klinghart, who
Speaker:works on five levels of healing.
Speaker:And we've seen incredible change in
Speaker:patients as a result of even looking at
Speaker:sort of ancestral trauma that they may be
Speaker:carrying down with them.
Speaker:This is something that he learned through
Speaker:working with someone called Bernd
Speaker:Hellinger, who lived with the Zulus for
Speaker:many, many years, working as their priest
Speaker:and found how very, very important the
Speaker:extended family is and how that sort of
Speaker:morphogenetic approach.
Speaker:If you begin to sort of look into that
Speaker:can also be a missing
Speaker:piece of the puzzle.
Speaker:Sorry, did you say
Speaker:the Zulus as in the S.U.
Speaker:Zulus?
Speaker:Yes, they sort of have incredible
Speaker:practices that do take into account
Speaker:missing members of the family, whether
Speaker:it's because it was a miscarriage or an
Speaker:early death or a murder or whatever, but
Speaker:all of that has an impact
Speaker:on the larger family, too.
Speaker:Yeah, I just mentioned it because I grew
Speaker:up in Kuzu-Lunatal in South Africa.
Speaker:Did you?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So originally from the UK, then spent my
Speaker:entire sort of, well, most
Speaker:of my life in South Africa.
Speaker:How fascinating.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So it's a lovely country.
Speaker:It really is.
Speaker:It's going through a sort of, should we
Speaker:say, a bit of a struggle at the moment.
Speaker:And if you like electricity and I suggest
Speaker:you don't live there.
Speaker:But beyond that, it
Speaker:really is a beautiful country.
Speaker:I'm sure I'd love to get in.
Speaker:Yeah, no, it's yeah, maybe not somewhere
Speaker:to live at the moment.
Speaker:But from a just from a cultural
Speaker:standpoint, from a geographic sort of
Speaker:standpoint, it really
Speaker:is an amazing country.
Speaker:Anyway, so I'd like to get back on track,
Speaker:as I was saying earlier,
Speaker:Dr.
Speaker:Balcovic, who I interviewed at the
Speaker:beginning of the year,
Speaker:looks at this through the lens of it
Speaker:being adaptive physiology.
Speaker:And in his from his vantage point, from
Speaker:his viewpoint, he sees all of this
Speaker:dysfunction as the body not necessarily
Speaker:entering into a state of dysfunction, but
Speaker:rather downregulating its physiology sort
Speaker:of based on the fact that it's under this
Speaker:sort of high elastatic load.
Speaker:And that we shouldn't view this
Speaker:physiology as broken, per se, but as the
Speaker:result of being in the state where it's
Speaker:sort of, yeah, it's downregulating these
Speaker:vital bodily processes.
Speaker:Well, that does sound a little bit
Speaker:similar to the CDR in that that's the
Speaker:mitochondria sort of ability to detect
Speaker:potential harm and damage
Speaker:to the cells, organs, body.
Speaker:And therefore, they downregulate and
Speaker:change a lot of their functions to,
Speaker:you know, it's an evolutionary sort of
Speaker:conserved protective mechanism.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And the different steps of it are
Speaker:obviously quite complex, but have been
Speaker:very, very well mapped out by Dr.
Speaker:Navio and his teams.
Speaker:Yes, one day I'll get him on to a call.
Speaker:I think I sent him an email.
Speaker:Oh, that would be fantastic.
Speaker:I sent him an email, an
Speaker:email at least once a month.
Speaker:I get to have a reply,
Speaker:but I'll keep on pushing.
Speaker:Let's keep trying.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Keep on pushing my luck.
Speaker:I'm a bit like a dog with
Speaker:a bone when it comes to it.
Speaker:Honestly, I think that's a perfect time
Speaker:to sort of segue into CDR and maybe we
Speaker:can discuss that in a
Speaker:fair amount of detail.
Speaker:I think the way I see it, there's these
Speaker:three sort of stages of the cell danger
Speaker:response and we sort of
Speaker:we get stuck in there.
Speaker:However, this is definitely your realm of
Speaker:expertise and something I just look at
Speaker:with the sort of the from a passionist,
Speaker:passionate hobbyist sort of viewpoint.
Speaker:So, yeah, I'd love it if you could start
Speaker:to how to break down this, to break down
Speaker:CDR and help us to understand what
Speaker:exactly is going on there.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Well, according to Dr.
Speaker:Navio and his teams, as I say, you know,
Speaker:they've even done very large studies
Speaker:using NIH grants of millions on this.
Speaker:So it's not just sort of a couple of
Speaker:articles that he wrote back in 2014.
Speaker:It's really been taken up really
Speaker:worldwide, though it's not fully
Speaker:integrated into, obviously, conventional
Speaker:medicine thinking yet.
Speaker:It's not reached the
Speaker:medical textbooks, I don't think.
Speaker:But there's CDR1, which is the sort of
Speaker:innate immune response to these various
Speaker:different factors
Speaker:that I mentioned earlier.
Speaker:And if the mitochondria detect a threat
Speaker:along any of those lines that I
Speaker:mentioned, and I think I forgot to
Speaker:emphasize physical as well, I mean,
Speaker:obviously, a major car accident or even
Speaker:breaking your arm or
Speaker:whatever, that's all included.
Speaker:Then they will decrease their oxygen
Speaker:consumption initially in order to allow
Speaker:the oxygen to instead
Speaker:suffuse the cytosol.
Speaker:And that changes the pH, it changes the
Speaker:way that enzymes act.
Speaker:And it also,
Speaker:it's both oxidant and increases the
Speaker:oxygen for antioxidants.
Speaker:So, you know, having more oxygen in the
Speaker:cytosol has a dual function.
Speaker:It's both able to, for example, kill or
Speaker:attempt to kill the pathogens that have,
Speaker:for example, been found there, but it can
Speaker:also power the superoxide dismutase,
Speaker:glutathione peroxidase,
Speaker:catalase, thioidoptase.
Speaker:All these antioxidants need a little
Speaker:oxygen to actually power them.
Speaker:And if you see higher levels of oxygen
Speaker:being used outside the mitochondria in
Speaker:the cell, then that's a very good sign
Speaker:for this kind of battle that's going on.
Speaker:It's often called the power plants
Speaker:turning into the battleships, as it were.
Speaker:So they're down-regulating in order to
Speaker:allow this sort of battle
Speaker:to take place in the cytosol.
Speaker:And another thing that happens is that
Speaker:the cell membranes are stiffened in order
Speaker:to prevent egress of, again, you know,
Speaker:any pathogens that may be detected.
Speaker:For example, spike
Speaker:protein to prevent in and out.
Speaker:So the composition of
Speaker:the cell membranes changes.
Speaker:And they also release antimicrobial and
Speaker:antibacterial, well, antiviral chemicals.
Speaker:Interestingly, they're able to do that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And they increase
Speaker:autophagy to the extent they can.
Speaker:Obviously, if you've had a major blow
Speaker:like the spike protein, as I mentioned,
Speaker:preventing that, then they'll do their
Speaker:very best to via mitochondrial fission
Speaker:and mitophagy, which is the breakdown and
Speaker:recycling of the mitochondria themselves.
Speaker:And they'll attempt to sort of
Speaker:operationalize that.
Speaker:And at this point, would cardiolapine be
Speaker:damaged within the
Speaker:mitochondria within the cell?
Speaker:I don't think it
Speaker:would be damaged as such.
Speaker:It would just be not allowing fats into
Speaker:the mitochondria to the
Speaker:extent that it normally does.
Speaker:That's its key role.
Speaker:But I mean, if you're not going to fire
Speaker:up the mitochondria like you would
Speaker:normally, then you're neither going to
Speaker:take in the fats to the extent that you
Speaker:would normally know the carbohydrates.
Speaker:And it also releases ATP,
Speaker:as a sort of, it's called E-ATP,
Speaker:extracellular ATP, that acts as a warning
Speaker:signal and actually communicates to other
Speaker:cells, a bit like the pheromones of sort
Speaker:of trees that one hears about in plants,
Speaker:sending up warning signals to each other.
Speaker:And it also alters post-behavior in that
Speaker:the person themselves loses energy,
Speaker:becomes a lot less active, you know, may
Speaker:just feel they have to
Speaker:spend some time in bed.
Speaker:But that's all part of
Speaker:this healing response.
Speaker:The energy simply isn't there any longer
Speaker:for those kinds of activities.
Speaker:So that would be CDR1.
Speaker:And hopefully, if that resolves the
Speaker:individual's issue, then soon enough, the
Speaker:mitochondria will take up the normal
Speaker:activities again and the cell danger
Speaker:response will discontinue.
Speaker:But it is possible for it
Speaker:to get what's called stuck.
Speaker:And for, or maybe there's a need for it,
Speaker:if it's been very, very major
Speaker:inflammation that's taken place, then the
Speaker:cell does need to spend a lot of time
Speaker:building the new macromolecules that you
Speaker:need for new cells to replace those that
Speaker:have gone under through inflammation.
Speaker:So it's building new lipids and new
Speaker:carbohydrates and new proteins.
Speaker:And so all of that will
Speaker:require the glycolysis.
Speaker:And increasingly, if you move to aerobic
Speaker:glycolysis of CDR2, which is where there
Speaker:is oxygen present, but it's being again
Speaker:used for this sort of
Speaker:rebuilding of cells outside the cell.
Speaker:This is called a sort
Speaker:of proliferative phase.
Speaker:And obviously, you don't want this to go
Speaker:on for too long because proliferation,
Speaker:obviously, signals at the
Speaker:end of the chain cancer,
Speaker:which is just one stage along a
Speaker:particular trajectory.
Speaker:You know, we shouldn't be frightened of
Speaker:that word like we are, but nevertheless,
Speaker:this proliferative stage CDR2 of aerobic
Speaker:glycolysis will hopefully
Speaker:not continue indefinitely.
Speaker:But move on to what's called CDR3, which
Speaker:is the third stage that Dr.
Speaker:Navio and his teams have identified,
Speaker:which is where the oxidative
Speaker:phosphorylation is
Speaker:beginning to start up again.
Speaker:But you've still got the cells in many
Speaker:parts of the body working and the
Speaker:mitochondria as well working
Speaker:independently rather than in a sort of
Speaker:very coordinated way.
Speaker:I have a slide here that includes all the
Speaker:different conditions
Speaker:under CDR1, 2 and 3 disorders.
Speaker:And it's absolutely incredible the number
Speaker:of disorders that are even listed under
Speaker:CDR3 like autism and chronic fatigue, of
Speaker:course, which can persist
Speaker:for years and even decades.
Speaker:And it's a kind of hibernation of the
Speaker:mitochondria that has really
Speaker:to a certain extent got stuck.
Speaker:What we have is the vagus nerve,
Speaker:which is, of course,
Speaker:extremely extensive and that has both a
Speaker:ventral and a dorsal kind of
Speaker:chain to it component exactly.
Speaker:And Porges and others have written really
Speaker:comprehensive literature on this.
Speaker:It would appear that the ventral stage,
Speaker:which is the sort of healing component of
Speaker:the vagus nerve, is in
Speaker:these cases downregulated.
Speaker:And instead, you have an upregulation of
Speaker:the dorsal, which corresponds to the CDR.
Speaker:And that can,
Speaker:in some cases, simply become it's a bit
Speaker:like cellular memory.
Speaker:It can become the sort of
Speaker:new normal for the patient.
Speaker:It's like a set point
Speaker:that has been changed.
Speaker:And so a lot of work has been done by
Speaker:Porges and others, including,
Speaker:interestingly, even Dr.
Speaker:Gerald, the Professor Gerald Pollock, you
Speaker:know, his work feeds into this massively
Speaker:as well to kind of try and regain the
Speaker:normal cell functions, including the
Speaker:dorsal signaling of the, I'm sorry, not
Speaker:the dorsal, the ventral
Speaker:signaling of the vagus nerve.
Speaker:That's fascinating.
Speaker:I wasn't aware Dr.
Speaker:Pollock was doing any
Speaker:specific research into.
Speaker:Well, not directly, but it all links up
Speaker:because the EZ water, the exclusion zone
Speaker:water, which you'll know about and have
Speaker:probably done other sort of podcasts on,
Speaker:is so central to getting
Speaker:that signaling back again.
Speaker:And in fact, the electrons, the neutral
Speaker:charge, it's a bit like a battery
Speaker:functioning in the cell and getting that
Speaker:battery sort of conduction, the
Speaker:electrical conduction working again
Speaker:properly does appear to a lot be
Speaker:connected to this fourth phase of water
Speaker:that Professor Pollock talks about.
Speaker:So he doesn't directly mention the CDR,
Speaker:but it is clearly part of it, as is even,
Speaker:you know, deuterium depletion.
Speaker:You know, we're beginning to see very,
Speaker:very big pictures now, I think, coming
Speaker:together, you know, the dots are sort of
Speaker:being joined very quickly now.
Speaker:Yeah, no, deuterium depletion is
Speaker:something I've, it's on my list of things
Speaker:to sort of dive into.
Speaker:But yeah, I think that's fascinating,
Speaker:especially from a sort of an oncological
Speaker:standpoint and the research that's been
Speaker:done into, yeah, reversing various
Speaker:metabolic, again, diseases, again, by
Speaker:from a deuterium depletion standpoint.
Speaker:Let me just mention, sorry to make that
Speaker:connection so that it's a
Speaker:bit easier to understand.
Speaker:It's because the mitochondria are
Speaker:continually producing metabolic water.
Speaker:This is the extraordinary thing.
Speaker:It's actually water that's been produced
Speaker:at cytochrome C oxidase as part of the
Speaker:part of the oxidative phosphorylation.
Speaker:And this metabolic water, it can be a
Speaker:huge amount, it's like
Speaker:sort of, I think, 17.
Speaker:We'd have to talk to Professor Borish
Speaker:about that, but certainly thousands of
Speaker:liters a day if it's being
Speaker:produced and recycled properly.
Speaker:And that's how camels work.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:Absolutely correct.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And it's their fat and it's the fats that
Speaker:we're eating, actually, that are making
Speaker:it possible for us to produce that a lot
Speaker:more efficiently than, you know, again,
Speaker:if the mitochondria are working.
Speaker:So it's gradually encouraging that
Speaker:metabolic water in our system to begin
Speaker:working again, because without it, the
Speaker:mitochondria can't work either.
Speaker:And it would appear to be low deuterium
Speaker:or deuterium depletion that both the
Speaker:Krebs cycle and the electron transport
Speaker:chain are creating in our mitochondria.
Speaker:And I'm quite sure that Dr.
Speaker:Navier, when you speak to him, will agree
Speaker:that part of the recovery process will be
Speaker:encouraging this metabolic water to be
Speaker:created in a much more efficient way.
Speaker:That's fascinating.
Speaker:I mean, I've taken from that more so than
Speaker:anything, is if camels get
Speaker:fried, they're probably stuffed.
Speaker:Sorry, maybe just a bit more of a
Speaker:technical question, if you don't mind.
Speaker:Do you think that that that that that
Speaker:that EATP that you mentioned earlier, and
Speaker:then other metabolites there are so
Speaker:things like Saxonate, Adenosine, etc.
Speaker:Do you think that they could play a role
Speaker:in amplifying also sustaining that that
Speaker:CDR response across tissues and cells if
Speaker:they're if they're elevated?
Speaker:Oh, absolutely, yes.
Speaker:But I mean, hopefully they're working in
Speaker:an intelligent manner in order to simply
Speaker:get the message across.
Speaker:Look, there's danger, Ahoy.
Speaker:We've got to alter pathways in these
Speaker:different manners, but not in a
Speaker:completely dysfunctional way.
Speaker:But I suppose eventually, I mean, I know
Speaker:that it's possible to measure DNA that's
Speaker:sort of floating around in the
Speaker:bloodstream that
Speaker:shouldn't be there as well.
Speaker:And to do that.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:Mitochondrial DNA.
Speaker:And that's a bad sign if you see it.
Speaker:But again, I very much go with Dr.
Speaker:Navier's thinking, which is that we
Speaker:shouldn't be considering these things as
Speaker:a, you know, from a negative standpoint,
Speaker:but just trying to understand what the
Speaker:signal is that they're trying to get.
Speaker:And I think, yeah.
Speaker:Again, just that sort of viewpoint of the
Speaker:physiology being
Speaker:adapted, not necessarily broken.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:What about epigenetic changes?
Speaker:And I think maybe the best example is,
Speaker:okay, hypothetically speaking, of course,
Speaker:say we were exposed to a sort of a
Speaker:massive viral pandemic.
Speaker:I mean, imagine that.
Speaker:And then we were then treated with a
Speaker:quickly developed vaccine that may or may
Speaker:not have undergone
Speaker:any sufficient testing.
Speaker:Would it be sort of plausible in your
Speaker:view that maybe a vaccine like this could
Speaker:sort of create epigenetic changes by sort
Speaker:of altering histones and other DNA and
Speaker:RNA components that could then drive up
Speaker:immune system activation and that and
Speaker:that purigenic signaling.
Speaker:And then to the extent that the body
Speaker:might end up stuck in CDR1, obviously
Speaker:through that epigenetic lens, do you
Speaker:think that's at all feasible?
Speaker:Most definitely.
Speaker:I'm very, very unhappy about what we've
Speaker:seen over the last four years or so.
Speaker:I know it's not a good idea to talk about
Speaker:this too much on podcasts that are going
Speaker:to go out on YouTube and so on.
Speaker:But yes, I mean, the body has such
Speaker:incredible intelligence and these tiniest
Speaker:little pathways and organelles and so on
Speaker:are all working at a rate of knots in
Speaker:such a sophisticated way that introducing
Speaker:something of the kind that you've just
Speaker:mentioned that could
Speaker:potentially disrupt that processing is
Speaker:I think misplaced on
Speaker:many, many different levels.
Speaker:Yeah, and it's not for me,
Speaker:obviously, really to decide.
Speaker:But I think that some of the difficulties
Speaker:that therapists and doctors are finding
Speaker:worldwide in
Speaker:assisting patients to recover,
Speaker:finding it much, much harder than they
Speaker:used to at the moment, could partly be
Speaker:linked to the whole pandemic and set of
Speaker:issues related to that we've experienced.
Speaker:I think for me, and this is a very slight
Speaker:tangent, is that maybe the silver lining
Speaker:of the pandemic and long COVID is that
Speaker:it's brought to light this idea of these
Speaker:chronic fatigue-like syndromes, myalgic
Speaker:encephalomyelitis, broadly speaking,
Speaker:these issues, which I suppose originally
Speaker:sort of started off as golf wall
Speaker:syndromes, PTSD and these other issues.
Speaker:And for me anyway,
Speaker:having struggling with
Speaker:it myself, to an extent,
Speaker:I think it definitely has, yeah, it's
Speaker:brought an awareness to the issue at
Speaker:large, which obviously, as you know,
Speaker:dealing with people on a regular basis,
Speaker:I'm sure, is a very sort of
Speaker:proliferative issue in society.
Speaker:So, yeah, I mean, obviously, we never
Speaker:would have wanted it to occur, that
Speaker:silver lining and all of that.
Speaker:I think it's, yeah, it's just brought a
Speaker:greater awareness to these mitochondrial
Speaker:disorders if you view long COVID
Speaker:essentially as a mitochondrial disorder,
Speaker:which I think we'd probably agree that it
Speaker:fundamentally is when you
Speaker:sort of remove all the triggers.
Speaker:Gillian, I think this would be a great
Speaker:time to sort of maybe segue into how you
Speaker:start to deal with, well, not deal,
Speaker:excuse me, how you start to work with
Speaker:clients when helping them
Speaker:to overcome these issues.
Speaker:Actually, you know, first, maybe we could
Speaker:discuss mitochondrial tests.
Speaker:Sorry, I'm a bit all over the place.
Speaker:I know through the AONM, I'll probably
Speaker:get that right at one point, there are
Speaker:several, you have several options with
Speaker:regards to mitochondrial testing, and
Speaker:they're all amazing.
Speaker:And I'm definitely going to have to
Speaker:somehow convince you to
Speaker:send me some sample reports.
Speaker:Delighted to, yes, we do an ATP profile,
Speaker:which shows the total ATP, which is, of
Speaker:course, composed of the site of the ATP
Speaker:being produced along glycolysis as well
Speaker:as within the mitochondria.
Speaker:So one must never forget, you know, some
Speaker:ATP is obviously being produced outside
Speaker:the mitochondria too.
Speaker:And then the capacity of the mitochondria
Speaker:to produce ATP and of
Speaker:the glycolytic pathway.
Speaker:And then the alternative sort of reserve,
Speaker:as it's called, ATP production as well.
Speaker:So that's the mitochondria at rest.
Speaker:And then there's a second one, which is
Speaker:called the mitochondrial health index
Speaker:that shows the
Speaker:mitochondria under pressure too.
Speaker:And that would indicate the, first of
Speaker:all, the degree to which oxygen is not
Speaker:being used in the mitochondria, as it
Speaker:should, you know, a maximum of, you know,
Speaker:10% should be used outside for the
Speaker:processes that we've just talked about,
Speaker:but not more than that.
Speaker:And if there is more than that, then you
Speaker:can usually, you know, what would
Speaker:determine exactly what
Speaker:processes might be causing that issue.
Speaker:It is a sign of a cell danger response.
Speaker:And there are markers, it's an 11-page
Speaker:report, so it contains a lot of markers
Speaker:like the proton leak, you know, exactly
Speaker:whether, you know, the mitochondrial
Speaker:membrane is not quite as sort of patent
Speaker:as, you know, integral as it should be.
Speaker:The coupling efficiency, in other words,
Speaker:how well the electrons are sort of
Speaker:popping from one complex to another.
Speaker:And the degree of post-exertional
Speaker:fatigue, you can also work out from
Speaker:what's called the reserve.
Speaker:When the mitochondria are put under
Speaker:pressure, they should be able to expand
Speaker:by about 400% in terms of the energy that
Speaker:they produce, and often
Speaker:it's a lot less than that.
Speaker:So there's a number of different markers
Speaker:that you can sort of put together.
Speaker:And there's an algorithm that calculates
Speaker:the what's called mitochondrial health
Speaker:index, which is useful to compare if you
Speaker:want to sort of repeat it
Speaker:after six months or whatever.
Speaker:And then there are tests to calculate the
Speaker:mitochondrial DNA
Speaker:compared to the nuclear DNA.
Speaker:Obviously, you have one nucleus but many
Speaker:mitochondria, so you can work out from
Speaker:that how many
Speaker:mitochondria there are in the cell.
Speaker:And if you have too few, mitobiogenesis,
Speaker:which is the generation of new
Speaker:mitochondria, would be useful.
Speaker:Whereas if you have too many, then that's
Speaker:a sign of the cell having detected a lack
Speaker:of energy and attempting to compensate
Speaker:for it by producing more mitochondria.
Speaker:But there is also a marker for how
Speaker:functional they are.
Speaker:And if a lot of them are dysfunctional,
Speaker:even if you have many, what's called
Speaker:mitophagy, which we discussed earlier,
Speaker:would be the approach rather than
Speaker:generating lots of new ones.
Speaker:And you can work out the degree to which
Speaker:the mitochondria is suffering from
Speaker:reactive oxygen species actually
Speaker:beginning to impact the DNA of the
Speaker:mitochondria, which is serious.
Speaker:So it's good to pick that up early.
Speaker:And the lactate pyruvate index actually
Speaker:shows you the fuels that are getting into
Speaker:the mitochondria, which is very useful.
Speaker:Yes,
Speaker:you can work out whether the mitochondria are able to process fats or whether
Speaker:they're at a stage where they're more
Speaker:readily able to process carbohydrates, or
Speaker:perhaps that the carbohydrates aren't
Speaker:even getting in and they're being
Speaker:backpedaled into lactate, which the body
Speaker:can use, but it's a messier process.
Speaker:And so if you've got a high lactate
Speaker:level, then that's a sign that the
Speaker:mitochondria really have shut down to a
Speaker:large extent and they're not even
Speaker:allowing the carbohydrates in.
Speaker:But they're not allowing the carbohydrates in. So you can tell quite a lot about the
Speaker:mitochondrial fuels from that.
Speaker:And there are various others as well.
Speaker:I'm either going to rob someone, break
Speaker:the piggy bank or put in for a job
Speaker:because those all
Speaker:sound absolutely amazing.
Speaker:I love the fact that you brought up those
Speaker:various metabolic shuttles and I think a
Speaker:poor man's version of that would be to
Speaker:measure glucose, ketones, and then
Speaker:lactate, which obviously you can do
Speaker:independently and use those as proxies as
Speaker:well, which I think would be interesting
Speaker:to cross reference those values directly
Speaker:with some of those tests to identify how
Speaker:you are, how effective you're utilizing
Speaker:fatty acids for fuel sources.
Speaker:I was actually going to ask this later,
Speaker:and actually I will.
Speaker:I was going to ask a question about
Speaker:ketogenic diets later
Speaker:and we'll get there.
Speaker:Well, we could just throw in now that
Speaker:that does show quite effectively that in
Speaker:some cases attempting to utilize a high
Speaker:fat diet for a patient is simply not
Speaker:going to be the right thing for them at
Speaker:that particular time.
Speaker:You can of course attempt to encourage
Speaker:ketones by giving beta hydroxybutyrate
Speaker:precursors and so on.
Speaker:That's a kind of way of leaping over the
Speaker:normal pathways into the mitochondria and
Speaker:hopefully as in the books about how
Speaker:useful ketones can be for Alzheimer's and
Speaker:so on, the Newton book and so on.
Speaker:There's good evidence that you can
Speaker:encourage that pathway, but actually
Speaker:utilizing a high fat diet, which is
Speaker:obviously often part of a ketogenic diet,
Speaker:is not always the right thing for the patient and they'll probably be able to
Speaker:give you a feedback as well.
Speaker:Yes, I'm sure they will very quickly.
Speaker:I think it's fascinating and again, I
Speaker:know people like Dr.
Speaker:Mai who are great proponents of the
Speaker:ketogenic diet, but as you've just
Speaker:alluded to you now, I do think that they
Speaker:can be problematic, which can be
Speaker:problematic in my view when you start
Speaker:dealing with people with these sort of
Speaker:apophimating gut tissues as well when
Speaker:there are some reactive carbohydrates.
Speaker:I think that starts to provide a
Speaker:challenge, but I suppose that's where you
Speaker:start to look at things like maybe a low
Speaker:FODMAP diet to remove potentially those
Speaker:triggering FODMAPs to help maybe allow a
Speaker:certain amount of carbohydrate ingestion
Speaker:while still not creating that
Speaker:fermentation that drives
Speaker:those dysbiotic conditions.
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:no, it's definitely a rabbit hole.
Speaker:Just maybe one more
Speaker:question if you don't mind.
Speaker:Just regarding the ketones, clinically,
Speaker:do you find there's any difference
Speaker:between the salts and the esters when
Speaker:providing somebody with a ketone
Speaker:supplement or do you not
Speaker:find it makes that question?
Speaker:Well, the esters are very much more
Speaker:expensive and so there's often a bit of
Speaker:reluctance among patients to use those, but salts have been very effective as well.
Speaker:I've had very good reports from patients
Speaker:and from doctors who are
Speaker:working with them as well.
Speaker:One doctor I know who managed to, or at
Speaker:least his patient managed to overcome
Speaker:this diabetes type 2 by using ketone
Speaker:salts along with obviously there's so
Speaker:many other things that a patient is using
Speaker:that you can't always
Speaker:identify that it's the one thing.
Speaker:But I do need to mention that I am and
Speaker:I'd love you to interview Morley Robbins
Speaker:at some point as well.
Speaker:He is actually coming over to England on
Speaker:the 21st and 22nd of May.
Speaker:He'll be holding two events here.
Speaker:I've sort of helped to liaise that and I
Speaker:have been following his approach with the
Speaker:Root Cause Protocol for about three years
Speaker:now quite intensively.
Speaker:I must say that despite all my, you know,
Speaker:a couple of decades of studying the
Speaker:mitochondria, I had not realised how
Speaker:very, very important bioavailable copper
Speaker:is for not just complex 4, you know, the
Speaker:cytochrome C oxidase, but also complex 5
Speaker:and the PrEP cycle and, you know, the
Speaker:production of heme and so on.
Speaker:It's absolutely central and also retinal.
Speaker:And so the pathway that's been worked out
Speaker:over many, many years by the Root Cause
Speaker:Protocol group, I first heard him in
Speaker:Seattle when I was over
Speaker:there actually with Dr.
Speaker:Klinghart, who was speaking
Speaker:sort of from the same platform.
Speaker:And I made a mental note for myself,
Speaker:gosh, this is somebody who I've got to
Speaker:follow as well and
Speaker:finally got round to it.
Speaker:And I'm very happy to be here. I've got round to it.
Speaker:And I must say this has
Speaker:extraordinary knowledge there.
Speaker:He's just done a very
Speaker:brilliant podcast with Dr.
Speaker:Malek that would be worth listening to
Speaker:for anybody who wants to sort of, you
Speaker:know, understand where he's coming from.
Speaker:But it's centrally involved in the
Speaker:mitochondria and that's because you were
Speaker:asking me what I suggest to patients.
Speaker:Very, very often I find that sort of
Speaker:sorting that mineral pathway, the
Speaker:electrolytes, making sure that they're
Speaker:getting sufficient retinol, which is
Speaker:problematic if it's a vegetarian or vegan
Speaker:patient because you can't really obtain
Speaker:retinol from non-meat sources or dairy.
Speaker:And then introducing the bioavailable
Speaker:copper that can really be miraculous and
Speaker:really, really help the mitochondria to
Speaker:get sort of back interaction again.
Speaker:So that is one of the very
Speaker:first pathways that I think about.
Speaker:And I sort of think back to cases I've
Speaker:had in the past like fatty liver, where I
Speaker:now understand the vital importance of
Speaker:those pathways in that as well.
Speaker:And sort of think, gosh, you know, I
Speaker:probably would have gone to that
Speaker:immediately in the past
Speaker:too if I'd known of it.
Speaker:So I think that's extremely useful.
Speaker:If you can't make it
Speaker:down to London in May,
Speaker:well, we're already in May, aren't we?
Speaker:For the events, then I'll send you the
Speaker:recording if we manage to make one.
Speaker:Oh, that'd be lovely.
Speaker:And if you could ask Morley Torrance my
Speaker:emails, that'd be better.
Speaker:Oh, I will do.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:I'm sure he gets thousands.
Speaker:So I'm not too...
Speaker:He publicly displays his
Speaker:email address everywhere.
Speaker:MorleyRobbins at gmail.com.
Speaker:So I'm sure he gets five and a half
Speaker:million emails on daily.
Speaker:But yeah, I've been trying to...
Speaker:As soon as he's over
Speaker:here, I'll mention that.
Speaker:Maybe he can even find time while he's
Speaker:over here, which is about seven days to
Speaker:have an interview with you.
Speaker:That would be super important.
Speaker:Yeah, no, we can make something happen.
Speaker:That would be amazing.
Speaker:Yeah, I've not dived that deeply into the
Speaker:root cause protocol.
Speaker:I think as you know, you sort of, you
Speaker:have your list of things to get through
Speaker:and then inevitably
Speaker:something falls by the wayside.
Speaker:I know, it took me a long, long time to
Speaker:get to it, but I'm so glad that I did.
Speaker:And I did want to start to mention that
Speaker:because you asked me what
Speaker:the different initiatives are.
Speaker:Another great
Speaker:inspiration I find is actually Dr.
Speaker:Jack Cruz.
Speaker:I don't know if you know of him,
Speaker:the neurosurgeon, but he emphasizes the
Speaker:importance of light for the mitochondria.
Speaker:Yes, but I mean, if he's different, he
Speaker:just doesn't work to...
Speaker:Yes, if you were to ask me what sort of
Speaker:the key influence for
Speaker:the mitochondria is.
Speaker:I mean, something that we all find so
Speaker:difficult these days
Speaker:because of the kinds of jobs and
Speaker:residences and where we live.
Speaker:It's so hard, but actually getting out
Speaker:into the sun and into nature and
Speaker:grounding more and so on.
Speaker:It all sounds so simple, but
Speaker:it's very, very hard to do.
Speaker:How much of our day
Speaker:do we spend doing that?
Speaker:And that's what our mitochondria are
Speaker:craving, actually, a lot of the time.
Speaker:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker:They're photoelectric, photodynamic
Speaker:organelles, and they require this input.
Speaker:I don't mean this with any disrespect,
Speaker:but I think people sort of, they don't
Speaker:realize it was sun beings and it's become
Speaker:culturally appropriate to analysis in the
Speaker:dark room all day, whereas technically we
Speaker:photosynthesize to a large extent.
Speaker:So by removing that aspect of our
Speaker:biology, we are essentially, yeah,
Speaker:becoming completely dysfunctional.
Speaker:Yeah, Dr.
Speaker:Cruz is someone I would also like to talk
Speaker:to, although I'll be honest, he scares
Speaker:the living day lights out of me.
Speaker:And when he goes down the physics rabbit
Speaker:hole, I get a bit bamboozled.
Speaker:I must admit, I think I did, the last
Speaker:time I did physics was maybe second year
Speaker:uni, and then that was it.
Speaker:Yeah, it's always a long listen, but it's
Speaker:just brilliant in there as well.
Speaker:No, definitely.
Speaker:He is a wealth of
Speaker:knowledge, that is for sure.
Speaker:So I suppose ultimately dealing with
Speaker:these chronic diseases and comes down to
Speaker:sort of ultimately
Speaker:identifying what causes the trigger.
Speaker:And what I'm trying to do is maybe create
Speaker:a framework for people who are on
Speaker:physicians or
Speaker:practitioners to sort of follow.
Speaker:And it fundamentally, and feel free to
Speaker:interject wherever you see fit.
Speaker:But the way I see it is you first got to
Speaker:find the root cause, your trigger, which
Speaker:is driving this dysfunction to begin
Speaker:with, whether it be mold and infection
Speaker:like a lime or what have you, and then to
Speaker:concurrently lower the toxic load on your
Speaker:body as much as possible.
Speaker:Then again, and that I think is where
Speaker:most people are going to struggle the
Speaker:most and where it is behoove, the correct
Speaker:word, then to work with a
Speaker:practitioner such as yourself.
Speaker:And then to start to start working
Speaker:through the other components of this
Speaker:dysfunction, sort of dealing with
Speaker:emotional issues, dealing with adverse
Speaker:childhood events, etc.
Speaker:And then to slowly reintroduce the
Speaker:nutrient-set support mitochondrial
Speaker:function, and to then
Speaker:hopefully get to the point where they
Speaker:have proper hormonal
Speaker:signaling and less despotic guts, etc.
Speaker:With that, it sort of has a hierarchy,
Speaker:sort of be a functional
Speaker:way to sort of approach.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And what's very interesting is there that
Speaker:you mentioned supporting the mitochondria
Speaker:a little bit later in that process.
Speaker:And often one sort of gut reaction, one's
Speaker:knee jerk reaction is to start giving
Speaker:large numbers of mitochondrial nutrients
Speaker:very quickly like CoQ10,
Speaker:300 milligrams or whatever.
Speaker:And actually, if the mitochondria have
Speaker:down regulated intelligently and
Speaker:intentionally and unable to process those
Speaker:kinds of nutrients at
Speaker:the present time, it's just
Speaker:an inappropriate thing to do.
Speaker:I mean, you've always got to be
Speaker:supporting the mitochondria in a basic
Speaker:way, of course, but giving lots and lots
Speaker:of very specific nutrients at the
Speaker:beginning of that process when you're
Speaker:still in CDR1 or 2 is
Speaker:probably less efficient.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:With the exception of something like
Speaker:methylene blue, which I'll ask you about
Speaker:in a bit, but otherwise, I see it.
Speaker:If you're bombarding a system that is
Speaker:electrical with too many electron donors,
Speaker:you're potentially just going to create a
Speaker:high reactive oxygen, just a high level
Speaker:of RRS between complex 4 and 5.
Speaker:So ultimately, you're going to end up
Speaker:doing more harm potentially than good.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And a lot of it will be escaping through
Speaker:the UCPs, the uncoupling proteins, and
Speaker:it's creating heat rather than creating
Speaker:energy if it's getting into the
Speaker:mitochondria at all.
Speaker:So I work not only directly, but I have a
Speaker:lot to do with a lot of bodybuilders, and
Speaker:a lot of them use these various
Speaker:uncoupling agents to utilize
Speaker:from a fat loss perspective.
Speaker:And interestingly enough, there have been
Speaker:a few who have sort of shown some sort of
Speaker:signs of clinical remission
Speaker:by utilizing these compounds.
Speaker:Not that I would suggest, or I'm sure you
Speaker:would, that using something
Speaker:like DMP is in any way safe,
Speaker:these thermogenic compounds, if you
Speaker:overdo them even slightly,
Speaker:they can actually kill you.
Speaker:But yeah, it is interesting that by sort
Speaker:of uncoupling mitochondria deliberately,
Speaker:you can actually see an improvement in
Speaker:energy, which I suppose makes sense.
Speaker:But yeah, it comes with a lot of
Speaker:potential drawbacks.
Speaker:Anyway, that is rabbit hole in a tangent.
Speaker:Gillian, you've been a star.
Speaker:I think I'd like to close off with a few
Speaker:rapid fire questions, if that's okay.
Speaker:We can answer them.
Speaker:They're never rapid fire.
Speaker:But we can, yeah, just a few sort of
Speaker:off-the-cuff questions.
Speaker:Okay, so starting off, if you could fast
Speaker:forward mitochondrial medicine, say 10
Speaker:years, what
Speaker:breakthrough would you hope to see?
Speaker:Would you like to see?
Speaker:Oh goodness.
Speaker:I'd like to see a lot more simplicity.
Speaker:It's the simplicity
Speaker:beyond the complexity.
Speaker:And so I do hope that together with
Speaker:others, we can work towards that to make
Speaker:it a lot easier to overcome the cell
Speaker:danger response and restore patient's
Speaker:health, not have people
Speaker:stuck in ME for 20 and 30 years.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:I mean, someone like Ron Davis, Professor
Speaker:Davis in the States, the Open Medicine
Speaker:Foundation, his son is in a...
Speaker:That's what gives him his motivation,
Speaker:unable to even take in
Speaker:sensations from around him.
Speaker:He sometimes can't even speak to him.
Speaker:This is so clearly a
Speaker:mitochondrial issue, and to be able to
Speaker:find simpler solutions would be
Speaker:absolutely tremendous.
Speaker:And affordable solutions as well.
Speaker:Yes, there we go.
Speaker:Unfortunately,
Speaker:medicine, I think, is still in that place
Speaker:where health is bought.
Speaker:And these problems aren't complex.
Speaker:I mean, they are complex to solve, but I
Speaker:feel there are so many
Speaker:solutions that are readily available.
Speaker:They just aren't accessible to 99.9% of
Speaker:the population at the moment.
Speaker:And that's a bit of a tragedy, and it's
Speaker:definitely what is a
Speaker:stumbling block for most,
Speaker:because it really, when you sort of
Speaker:understand the basics of it, like I do,
Speaker:and I'm nothing special, you do realize
Speaker:how simple these issues, broadly
Speaker:speaking, are to solve, at least
Speaker:initially.
Speaker:Obviously, if you're dealing with
Speaker:something more complicated, like a long
Speaker:code, where there's potentially a spike
Speaker:protein involvement, then
Speaker:it gets more complicated.
Speaker:But there are definitely solutions.
Speaker:They've just got to be accessible.
Speaker:Your answer is definitely,
Speaker:yeah, it's great.
Speaker:I was going to be obnoxious and say
Speaker:something like mitochondrial
Speaker:transplants, which I think...
Speaker:No, no, no.
Speaker:The body is too intelligent to need that
Speaker:kind of intervention.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I'm just excited.
Speaker:Aubrey de Grey and his
Speaker:attempts over the years.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:Thanks very much.
Speaker:What can I say?
Speaker:It's a biochemist in me.
Speaker:I just want to see what happens when
Speaker:someone prods
Speaker:something or something else.
Speaker:Okay, next one.
Speaker:Red light therapy is thought to improve
Speaker:mitochondrial function.
Speaker:And I suppose it does,
Speaker:at least peripherally.
Speaker:Do you think it's effective at helping to
Speaker:improve CDR or is it not that...
Speaker:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker:I think that photobio-modulation is
Speaker:massively important.
Speaker:And that, along with the light, as I
Speaker:mentioned earlier, sometimes patients
Speaker:can't take a lot of supplements and they
Speaker:can't even take a lot of...
Speaker:Obviously, transdermal nutrients,
Speaker:electrolytes, and so on can help.
Speaker:But sometimes you really do have to start
Speaker:with these more sort of
Speaker:extracorporeal types of therapy.
Speaker:And I think the red light, perhaps just
Speaker:an umbrella above the person's head,
Speaker:perhaps just for three minutes.
Speaker:Once every couple of days, I've seen that
Speaker:make a huge difference as well.
Speaker:It's got to be the right frequency.
Speaker:And there are specialists like Dr.
Speaker:Damien Downing, who I know you're
Speaker:interviewing very soon, who have spent
Speaker:many, many years looking into that and
Speaker:have a whole range of
Speaker:products related to that.
Speaker:It would be very, very important really
Speaker:not to waste your money on the wrong
Speaker:frequency, but there are specialists
Speaker:available who can give one
Speaker:that kind of information.
Speaker:Yeah, there definitely are.
Speaker:Vegas mode stimulators.
Speaker:There are a few out there.
Speaker:Are you a fan of these?
Speaker:Do you think they're effective?
Speaker:I haven't used them myself.
Speaker:Items like the Sensate, again, through
Speaker:working closely with Dr.
Speaker:Damien, because I am a member of the BSCM
Speaker:as well on the committee.
Speaker:So I attend every event of theirs, and
Speaker:he's seen benefits from that.
Speaker:And I do have colleagues who also have
Speaker:done, but I haven't
Speaker:recommended them myself.
Speaker:Not yet.
Speaker:Fair enough.
Speaker:And the last one, and maybe
Speaker:this one is a bit obscure.
Speaker:So if needs be, we can cut it down.
Speaker:But what do you think about
Speaker:mitochondrial support peptides?
Speaker:Things like MoTSI or SS31?
Speaker:I don't know if you've come across these
Speaker:or if you've got any thoughts on them.
Speaker:Do you think they're effective?
Speaker:Have you utilized them in practice?
Speaker:Dr.
Speaker:Holtz-Dolfen states, for example, as a
Speaker:great specialist in those.
Speaker:I haven't used them, and they're
Speaker:difficult to access here.
Speaker:And I think he would really need to, A,
Speaker:B, and M, D, I would
Speaker:say really to use them.
Speaker:I think even in the states, they've, the
Speaker:FDA has removed a lot of them from the
Speaker:market now, perhaps
Speaker:without any justification.
Speaker:But it's a bit of a hot potato.
Speaker:I would much prefer to start with
Speaker:something simpler, like I was just
Speaker:explaining previously, the right balance
Speaker:of minerals, checking the
Speaker:patient's sodium status.
Speaker:COTS is so often just a matter of getting
Speaker:the potassium and the
Speaker:sodium ratios right.
Speaker:Starting with the basics, and often I do
Speaker:find people have been
Speaker:through the most incredible
Speaker:odysseys, perhaps even using apheresis,
Speaker:which is filtering of the blood, the
Speaker:entire blood, attempting to remove the
Speaker:antibodies and aspects such as I've just
Speaker:mentioned, have not
Speaker:been touched on at all.
Speaker:So diet, of course, is
Speaker:so important as well.
Speaker:So using the, as I say, simpler, sort of
Speaker:more accessible
Speaker:techniques would be my preference.
Speaker:But I'd be very prepared to sort of take
Speaker:part in seminars and
Speaker:learn more about the peptides.
Speaker:I just haven't done that yet.
Speaker:Yeah, they're definitely interesting.
Speaker:And things like MODC, sort of which
Speaker:enhance insulin sensitivity and promote
Speaker:the sort of mitochondrial biogenesis, it
Speaker:acts on the folate AMPK pathway.
Speaker:And it's also thought to
Speaker:be an exercise mimetic.
Speaker:And I think Downstreamer that promotes
Speaker:some PGC1R for activation.
Speaker:And then you have things like SS31, which
Speaker:more instead of that sort of the
Speaker:biogenesis aspect, it, let's see if I can
Speaker:get this right, it binds to cardiolipine
Speaker:and I think it improves the membrane
Speaker:health and the structure thereof, thereby
Speaker:sort of reducing ROS
Speaker:and improving ATP output.
Speaker:So they definitely are interesting and
Speaker:there's definitely some
Speaker:therapeutic potential there.
Speaker:But I think, as you alluded to, it's,
Speaker:I think the FDA has, I hate this term,
Speaker:clamped down on a lot of them because of
Speaker:the gray market aspect.
Speaker:And I think people have just
Speaker:had too much access to them.
Speaker:And yeah, I don't think they're inherent
Speaker:inherently a problem.
Speaker:But I think when you start looking at
Speaker:things like where they're sourced, they
Speaker:can become an issue.
Speaker:A lot of them come from, they're not even
Speaker:compounded, they just come from the Far
Speaker:East or whatever where they're just
Speaker:manufactured and you don't
Speaker:know what you get alongside them.
Speaker:The endotoxin load,
Speaker:obviously, yeah, the endotoxin load, the
Speaker:lipopolysaccharide
Speaker:load, heavy metals, etc.
Speaker:But they are, when they use correctly,
Speaker:they definitely are incredible.
Speaker:Okay, last one.
Speaker:What are your thoughts on methylene blue?
Speaker:I don't use it myself.
Speaker:I do have some concerns when I listen to
Speaker:what it does to the MAO pathway
Speaker:or enzyme.
Speaker:MAO, A, I think.
Speaker:And B, yeah.
Speaker:Is it B?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:An enough dosage to be fair.
Speaker:Yes, I sort of, again, I'm a little bit
Speaker:perhaps cautious that way.
Speaker:And I would prefer to see it used by
Speaker:doctors and not too widely accessible
Speaker:just because of the risks that appear to
Speaker:be in the dosage and so on.
Speaker:But I'm very happy to
Speaker:work in teams where people,
Speaker:which I do prefer to do, actually, I
Speaker:always prefer to work in
Speaker:multidisciplinary teams and there might
Speaker:be a doctor included.
Speaker:I know that Dr.
Speaker:Klinghardt, for example, does use it and
Speaker:other doctors who I know as well.
Speaker:So they're willing to be guided by them,
Speaker:but I don't recommend it myself.
Speaker:Yeah, again, it's a
Speaker:very interesting molecule.
Speaker:And obviously, being an electron donor
Speaker:and being able to bypass some of those
Speaker:block complexes, I think for the right
Speaker:person, it's definitely a good option.
Speaker:And somebody who's already got healthy
Speaker:liver mitochondrial function, it's
Speaker:definitely not warranted.
Speaker:And it can actually, again, cause
Speaker:electron leakage with excessive use.
Speaker:I think one of the things it's able to do
Speaker:is to switch from ferrous ion to the
Speaker:ferric ion, i.e. from the 3 to the 2 plus
Speaker:stage and the methanolabemia, which is a
Speaker:problem as well, and for which it was
Speaker:originally used and still is.
Speaker:It just makes me wonder whether there are
Speaker:other ways of encouraging better ion
Speaker:transport and releasing the trapped ion
Speaker:and creating the right form of ion for
Speaker:the body to utilize rather than
Speaker:necessarily using that.
Speaker:But I'm open to learning more about it.
Speaker:Yeah, no, it is an interesting molecule.
Speaker:And there's a large amount of data there
Speaker:around its use and sort of regulating
Speaker:things like ferroptosis, which is another
Speaker:rabbit hole for another day.
Speaker:But yeah, I think for a lot of people in
Speaker:this who are struggling with CDR, the
Speaker:point you touched on with regards to it
Speaker:being an MAOI, yeah, an monoamine oxidase
Speaker:inhibitor, is very on point because,
Speaker:yeah, I mean, if you're going to inhibit
Speaker:MAO, you're going to sort of increase
Speaker:histamine levels potentially, which is
Speaker:going to cause all sorts of
Speaker:people all sorts of issues.
Speaker:So I think a little
Speaker:knowledge can be a dangerous thing.
Speaker:And it's ultimately up to the individual
Speaker:to educate themselves thoroughly if they
Speaker:do choose to use these
Speaker:sorts of compounds, but
Speaker:causing the serotonin
Speaker:syndrome as well, which patients
Speaker:generally do disclose everything to one,
Speaker:but not always
Speaker:absolutely every last thing.
Speaker:Sometimes they forget.
Speaker:And if they are an SSRI,
Speaker:it can potentially be fatal.
Speaker:Yeah, I think it's ultimately a bit of a
Speaker:done in Kruger at the
Speaker:end of the days, isn't it?
Speaker:You sort of, little
Speaker:knowledges can be a dangerous thing.
Speaker:Jolynn, you've been a star and this
Speaker:conversation has been
Speaker:delightful and informative.
Speaker:Thank you so much.
Speaker:And I'll thank you.
Speaker:It's been up and delighted to be here.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:If people want to work with you, if they
Speaker:want to find out more about the AONM, I
Speaker:think I got there, where
Speaker:would you like to point them?
Speaker:Where can they find you?
Speaker:Well, the Academy of Nutritional Medicine
Speaker:AONM is readily
Speaker:accessible at the url aonm.org.
Speaker:And all our tests and
Speaker:our events are there.
Speaker:I hold a bit like you, you know, a
Speaker:podcast about a
Speaker:webinar about once a week.
Speaker:And I'm always there and have an email,
Speaker:Jolynn, with 1L, interestingly, at
Speaker:aonm.org, where I can
Speaker:always be reached as well.
Speaker:So thank you so, so much.
Speaker:It's absolutely stunning for different
Speaker:speakers you have available.
Speaker:And I'm going to go back now over all of
Speaker:your recordings and listen to them
Speaker:because it sounds as though you have
Speaker:amazing topics that you've covered and
Speaker:are planning to cover.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:That's very kind of you.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:We'll chat soon.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:Bye bye.
