#012 Jonny Hirtenstein - Navigating Trauma with Chiropractic Care
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#012 Jonny Hirtenstein - Navigating Trauma with Chiropractic Care
Jonny Hirtenstein DC is a chiropractor who specialises in a functional medicine based approach helping patients with chronic and complex health issues. He graduated from the Anglo-European Chiropractic College in Bournemouth in 2013. He now works in his practice, Foundation for Life Healthcare, based just outside Oxford. After beginning life as a more typical "structural" chiropractor, he soon found that this left a lot of unanswered questions and so he began delving into other treatment modalities inside and outside his profession, allowing him to explore the health of his patients in a deeper, more holistic way. This culminated in learning the Gateway System developed by renowned Osteopath Richard Holding, whose system is an evolution of those developed by his mentors George Goodhart and Alan Beardall (Applied and Clinical Kinesiology). He now delivers Seminars to other Chiropractors and Osteopaths.
> During our discussion, you’ll discover:
(00:01:17) What is trauma
(00:03:38) What are trauma triggers
(00:07:35) Can trauma be trans-generational
(00:12:09) How trauma and stress affect the body physiologically
(00:14:10) Polyvagal theory
(00:18:26) Does the vagus nerve impact the development of the brain
(00:21:01) Cell Danger Response
(00:28:32) Can muscle fascia hold trauma
(00:29:46) How the HPG-Axis regulates trauma
(00:35:13) Long-term health implications of unresolved trauma
(00:38:42) Devices to tone the vagus nerve
(00:41:08) Is it beneficial to track HRV
(00:47:15) Somatic Experiencing
(00:52:51) Trauma release exercises
(00:54:57) Psychedelic therapies
(01:02:07) Ketamine
(01:04:36) Non sleep deep rest
(01:08:20) EMDR
(01:10:12) Touch Therapies
(01:13:02) 5 things anyone can implement into their lives
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Transcript
Good afternoon, Johnny, and thank you for joining us today.
Speaker:I know this is, this conversation is going to be both interesting and educational.
Speaker:Before we begin, would you mind providing us with just a short bio, who you are,
Speaker:what you do, and all that good stuff?
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Hi, Rob.
Speaker:I'm a chiropractor.
Speaker:I graduated in 2013.
Speaker:And like many chiropractors, I started out predominantly with
Speaker:a musculoskeletal approach.
Speaker:And then over the years As I've, uh, deepened my interest and understanding
Speaker:in other areas, I started to delve into functional medicine based approaches.
Speaker:And that's really where I've started to move over the last, uh, five, six,
Speaker:seven years, something like that.
Speaker:And I think like most practitioners, you, you reach that point where you're
Speaker:wanting to go deeper with patients.
Speaker:You're wanting to deliver deeper results.
Speaker:And so I started and started to look around at other things.
Speaker:In my profession and even beyond my profession to ensure that I was getting
Speaker:better results with my patients.
Speaker:So that's me
Speaker:Fair enough taking a more of a roots cause approach to it looking for
Speaker:the underlying reasons for an issue and all of that That's amazing.
Speaker:Thank you for that.
Speaker:It's always great to get a solid intro before going into the details Today
Speaker:we're going to be talking about what's turned into a bit of a passion for you
Speaker:Trauma and I suppose how it affects the body I'd like, if possible, if you
Speaker:could start off by introducing the term.
Speaker:As for most, it tends to bring up sort of issues and thoughts of serious
Speaker:injury or very violent and acute events.
Speaker:I think that's what most people associate with trauma.
Speaker:But I know there's a lot more to it than that.
Speaker:Would you mind enlightening us as to what trauma is, at least in the way
Speaker:that you see it present in patients?
Speaker:Yeah, I think we could start, I suppose, with the root of the word, which is that
Speaker:it comes from the Greek to mean wound.
Speaker:And really that's, you know, really what trauma is about.
Speaker:Trauma is not the event itself, but the view we take of it.
Speaker:So what might be traumatic for me may not be for you and vice versa.
Speaker:It's any situation really where we're, I think of it as.
Speaker:You can have traumas in the sense of, uh, something that is an acute, sudden
Speaker:trauma, so a short duration that's so overwhelming that we, in some ways,
Speaker:store that in our nervous system.
Speaker:Or long, or conversely, maybe a lower magnitude, but long enough duration
Speaker:that that sort of repetitive stress and strain on our system is traumatic to us.
Speaker:And I think that the, maybe the best way to, to understand that is, you know,
Speaker:through our nervous system because, um, it's really about responding to our
Speaker:environment as a survival mechanism.
Speaker:You know, but then of course, after the trauma's passed, then that
Speaker:survival mechanism may not necessarily serve us, but it did at the time.
Speaker:But I think the key thing probably to understand is that we don't choose to
Speaker:be traumatized in a certain situation.
Speaker:We're overwhelmed, either consciously or unconsciously.
Speaker:And then it's a question of what do we do with that afterwards?
Speaker:Yeah, and I think what's very pertinent in that is that the body just perceives
Speaker:stress as stress it's not able to sort of Really identify the difference between an
Speaker:acute stress and a chronic stress at the end of the day if that stress is ongoing
Speaker:It's going to create that traumatic event or that trauma response or that injury
Speaker:as you put it If an individual is exposed to it for a long enough period of time.
Speaker:I know that's something we'll be discussing in detail.
Speaker:I suppose that's a great segue again into figuring out exactly
Speaker:what trauma triggers are.
Speaker:As you mentioned, not all of them are acute, but there are
Speaker:certainly some more well known ones.
Speaker:Things like adverse childhood events, for example, would you mind sort of
Speaker:running through, I suppose, briefly, just a, a brief list of what you
Speaker:would consider to be a trauma.
Speaker:I know it's all relative, but, um, I think people always like a black and
Speaker:white sort of answer to these things.
Speaker:It just helps to sort of identify with them.
Speaker:We do, don't we?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I mean, you've, you've mentioned adverse childhood events or ACEs
Speaker:as they're often referred to.
Speaker:I think the reason that's a big one is because those are our formative years
Speaker:and also when we're young we don't have the capacity to be able to deal with
Speaker:an experience without, let's say we're more susceptible to being overwhelmed by
Speaker:experiences and I think the younger you go, the, the, the bigger that becomes
Speaker:an issue and that can take many forms.
Speaker:Obviously that might be being bullied as a kid.
Speaker:It might be difficult family dynamics.
Speaker:It might be, you know, the, what we think of as the big T's, you know,
Speaker:things like physical or emotional or sexual abuse, those can all come
Speaker:under that, that auspice as well.
Speaker:Then I think other traumas might be, and we talked about the difference
Speaker:between acute and chronic, but perhaps what I didn't mention as well
Speaker:as you can have a physical trauma can also be emotionally traumatic.
Speaker:And it may be a simple example of that.
Speaker:It might be.
Speaker:You know, to an athlete having a severe injury that curtails their
Speaker:career, that will have a significant psychological impact as well, not
Speaker:just the, the, the physical impact.
Speaker:Um, then we've talked about some acute events that can go on, but
Speaker:then I think in some ways the chronic trauma is the biggest one.
Speaker:I think that's the, that's the one that really is really.
Speaker:It sits deep in our nervous system and it's harder to shift, uh, because the
Speaker:longer we spend in those chronic states of arousal, the more our nervous system
Speaker:just gets wired and used to that state.
Speaker:And so sort of decompressing from that becomes, um, really challenging.
Speaker:Do you think that that's almost the basis for what you used to be and is
Speaker:still in sort of more traditional terms?
Speaker:Could be best described as PTSD, the sort of, on, uh, this chronic ongoing trauma
Speaker:or, or maybe even acute cases where an individual is left with these symptoms
Speaker:commonly associated with PTSD, aches, pains, a very dysregulated ability to
Speaker:respond rationally to stressful events.
Speaker:Would you say that our understanding of trauma now is what PTSD was
Speaker:sort of initially thought to be?
Speaker:Yeah, I mean PTSD I suppose is one way of describing a kind of trauma And I
Speaker:suppose that the stereotype of that might be people coming back from you know,
Speaker:Afghans, Afghanistan having experienced, you know, pretty awful wartime stuff And
Speaker:then getting triggered for, for example, you know, hearing a car backfire and
Speaker:then running behind a dustbin because you think it's, you know, gunfire.
Speaker:Not consciously, obviously it's a, it's a kind of automatic response.
Speaker:And that's really what, what's going on with PTSD is we're replaying
Speaker:something, there's a trigger and then we replay has happened to us previously.
Speaker:And so these get these things, these experiences get stored in our body.
Speaker:And I suppose if you're someone like Gab or Marta, you'd probably say it's,
Speaker:you know, it's stored in the psyche.
Speaker:You can describe it as a chiropractor.
Speaker:I think about it more from a nervous system point of
Speaker:view, but I think all those.
Speaker:Ways of thinking of it are, are valid.
Speaker:Gabrielle has a sort of, from what I've read of his, uh, research anyway,
Speaker:has a very interesting approach to dealing with, uh, to looking at trauma.
Speaker:And I think if I'm correct, he looks at it from almost an epigenetic standpoint.
Speaker:The fact that trauma can be transgenerational.
Speaker:And a lot of this has been said in the media in, in recent years, especially
Speaker:what are your views on this phenomenon?
Speaker:I actually got that word right for a change.
Speaker:Do you think trauma can be carried down through generations or is it
Speaker:very much, is it a result of an individual going through a series of
Speaker:traumatic events or a traumatic event?
Speaker:I, I, I agree with Gabo Marte, I think absolutely.
Speaker:gets passed down.
Speaker:And it's not really just a matter of opinion.
Speaker:I mean, I've read a study where they, they, they've actually identified,
Speaker:I think they did it with mice.
Speaker:Don't ask me to quote when that study was done or who, by whom, I
Speaker:don't retain that, but, um, we'll
Speaker:find it for the show.
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:you can probably find that.
Speaker:Uh, but they, they basically traumatized one generation of mice and then allowed
Speaker:them to have offspring and the offspring right down, I think, to third generation.
Speaker:So the grandchildren.
Speaker:Exhibited a response to, uh, the stimulus, the original traumatizing stimulus.
Speaker:So it suggested that it had been passed down.
Speaker:I also think it's logical, though, if you think about evolution from
Speaker:an evolutionary perspective, that it serves a safety adaptation.
Speaker:You want to pass that information genetically down for survival.
Speaker:And that's one of the primary functions, isn't it, of our
Speaker:genetic expression is to survive.
Speaker:I also think if we look at the last, you know, 100 and living on the back
Speaker:of two world wars, that's, yeah, if you look at the way our culture's
Speaker:gone, I think that's very interesting.
Speaker:I don't think it's a coincidence that we're now in a very consumer
Speaker:culture on the back of two world wars, because one of the things
Speaker:that you get with high level trauma, obviously, that level of trauma is.
Speaker:It's fairly unprecedented.
Speaker:You know, we would have had scores of men and women, you know, traumatized through,
Speaker:I mean, obviously the fighting is one aspect, but the women were, you know,
Speaker:hugely affected too in a variety of ways.
Speaker:And obviously the Holocaust, I mean, you know.
Speaker:There's a high, high incidence of PTSD in the Jewish community.
Speaker:And in fact, going back to the original question about, you know,
Speaker:transgenerational trauma, I believe that there's a higher than normal
Speaker:incidence of depression and PTSD in the children and grandchildren of
Speaker:Holocaust survivors, which would suggest.
Speaker:that there is some trauma material being passed down.
Speaker:And I think they believe it, it, it gets put in the non coding part of the DNA.
Speaker:What used to be known as junk DNA.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:To play devil's advocate though, and just playing devil's advocate
Speaker:because fundamentally I actually agree with you completely actually.
Speaker:But what about the idea that The trauma may not be being passed down
Speaker:physiologically, but it may be the result of a anxious parent producing
Speaker:an anxious child by way of child mimicking a parent's behavior.
Speaker:Do you think that that may have a sort of certain aspect to it too?
Speaker:Again, and I'm probably answering my own question here.
Speaker:Do you think it's just more of a case of it being the physiological manifestation
Speaker:of that parent's experience events?
Speaker:That's a really good question, isn't it?
Speaker:I think probably the answer is both, you know, I think that's the most
Speaker:likely answer we don't know, do we?
Speaker:And it's very difficult.
Speaker:I mean, if you're conducting research to try and figure that
Speaker:out, that's going to be tricky.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Too much data.
Speaker:How do you, how do
Speaker:you?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:How do you?
Speaker:You know, eliminate some of those variables.
Speaker:It's very difficult.
Speaker:I, I think for the reasons I said before, I think it is logical that there will
Speaker:be a genetic component to it though.
Speaker:Um, but I certainly think, yeah, probably it's reinforced by parental behavior.
Speaker:Um, and I think most of us know that don't we, in terms of our own
Speaker:family dynamics that, you know, there is a bit of a chicken and egg
Speaker:sort of scenario that goes on there.
Speaker:We have.
Speaker:tendencies is very difficult to extrapolate Which is me and what's
Speaker:been conditioned into me, you know, that's very yeah, you're getting
Speaker:into complex territory in the end Maybe it doesn't matter as well.
Speaker:You know, the what really matters is what's the route out of there?
Speaker:Hopefully that's a question We'll answer shortly Carrying on with
Speaker:this, uh, this topic of sort of biology and the origins of trauma.
Speaker:Um, I know that trauma is synonymous with stress, uh, at a body level anyway.
Speaker:Um, and I suppose my question is how trauma, in this case stress,
Speaker:physiologically affects the body.
Speaker:Uh, I reckon a great Uh, place to start is with the autonomic nervous system,
Speaker:uh, of which there are two branches and we can then go from there, but would
Speaker:you just mind breaking down what this system is in the body just at a, at a
Speaker:high level so that we can then start exploring its connection then with trauma?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So the, the autonomic nervous system is the part of the nervous
Speaker:system that runs without us consciously being aware of that.
Speaker:So breathing is a good example, uh, your heart rate.
Speaker:Although breathing is an interesting one because that's actually under
Speaker:voluntary and involuntary control, which is one of the reasons why it's such a
Speaker:fascinating, uh, tool for us to, to use.
Speaker:Um, and yeah, as you said, there's two parts to the autonomic nervous system.
Speaker:You've got the sympathetic, uh, nervous system, which people often.
Speaker:It's kind of colloquial, colloquially known as fight and flight.
Speaker:And then the other part is loosely known as, uh, the
Speaker:parasympathetic is rest and digest.
Speaker:Although actually, as we'll probably talk about, it's a bit more nuanced than that.
Speaker:Um, but that it's really about balance.
Speaker:You want a baseline of parasympathetic activation to give you that.
Speaker:That relaxed, calm state, but with little peaks of sympathetic, uh, stimulation to,
Speaker:so that you're not totally falling asleep.
Speaker:Uh, so really it's about, if we think of it a bit like a balance of
Speaker:scales, it's about having that balance with a nice state of equilibrium.
Speaker:And one of the things obviously that has with trauma, that happens with trauma is
Speaker:that that balance, you know, disappears.
Speaker:Yeah, you end up in that, uh, sympathetic state far more often, um, definitely.
Speaker:So I think that, uh, really sort of ties in nicely to my next question,
Speaker:which is about polyvagal theory and this idea that there's this nerve in
Speaker:the body, the biggest nerve in the body, uh, called the vagus nerve.
Speaker:And there is a very strong school of thought, uh, that seems to indicate that
Speaker:this polyvagal theory may actually be at the forefront of what, well, not, not what
Speaker:sorts of causes, but what controls trauma.
Speaker:Uh, I know this is something you're intimately familiar with.
Speaker:So would you mind running us through what the polyvagal theory is, um, and what the
Speaker:vagus nerve is, I suppose, and, and how that, um, is thought to, Yeah, support,
Speaker:uh, support this trauma hypothesis.
Speaker:Yeah, so I said a minute ago that the parasympathetic nervous system was
Speaker:originally thought to be Rest and digest and it's may it's it's governed basically
Speaker:the main nerve of the parasympathetic nervous system is the vagus nerve.
Speaker:The vagus nerve means that means wandering nerve and it goes from the
Speaker:base of our cranium and it kind of innovates all your giblets basically.
Speaker:So it's hence why it's called a wandering nerve because it goes all over the place.
Speaker:Um, polyvagal theory is a theory that was developed by a guy called Stephen Porges.
Speaker:I think I believe towards the end of the 90s and the idea being that actually there
Speaker:are three parts to the parasympathetic nervous system and the vagus nerve.
Speaker:So there are, there are two really old from an evolutionary
Speaker:point of view branches.
Speaker:They're called the dorsal branches of the vagus nerve, which
Speaker:means at the back of your body.
Speaker:One of those is the rest and digest that we've discussed.
Speaker:And the other one is the one that's particularly pertinent to trauma, which
Speaker:is, uh, the, your freeze instinct.
Speaker:So if you think of like a lizard, Like, you know, next to a pool when you go on
Speaker:holiday and it spots you, it freezes.
Speaker:It's that sort of reptilian circuitry that we're talking about.
Speaker:Uh, and it, and as I've just alluded to, that's the oldest part of the, the vagal
Speaker:system from an evolutionary perspective.
Speaker:So it goes back to reptiles.
Speaker:And then there's a third branch, which also does, is worth mentioning
Speaker:in relation to trauma, because that's the newest branch, that's the anterior
Speaker:branch on the front of the body.
Speaker:And that is wired up to all, it's to do with social engagement, basically.
Speaker:So if you think about muscles of facial expression, they're influenced that way.
Speaker:The heart, we often Think of that idea of, you know, feeling a sense
Speaker:of heart opening towards other people, feeling intense love.
Speaker:And one of the things you get with, with people when they experience trauma,
Speaker:they experience a freezing instinct, and you'll get a lot of the social
Speaker:engagement component of, of that nerve stimulation, uh, stops or retracts.
Speaker:So they, you'll often find that traumatized people become
Speaker:quite withdrawn and insular.
Speaker:For example, they won't make eye contact.
Speaker:Um, it's those sorts of things.
Speaker:Um, because when we think about trauma, we have to think about, we talked
Speaker:about fight, flight, rest, and digest.
Speaker:But really, the, you know, when we're in a state of trauma, what ordinarily
Speaker:would happen is we will respond to a situation where we don't feel safe by
Speaker:either running away, So the flight or the fighting component, but really what
Speaker:tends to go on with, uh, trauma is that freeze mechanism kicks in usually because
Speaker:neither of the other options is really viable in the situation that we're facing.
Speaker:And so it's almost like we don't know what else to do.
Speaker:We just freeze.
Speaker:And so often what you'll find when people are working through trauma is
Speaker:you'll get a bit of a reactivation of that fight flight instinct that was
Speaker:initially not allowed to be expressed.
Speaker:So that's probably a good summary of polyvagal theory, I think.
Speaker:No, it's amazing, and it's, it's definitely something I know we'll sort of
Speaker:go into in a second in terms of, well, a few minutes, in terms of how to sort of
Speaker:modulate the, the activity of that nerve.
Speaker:Um, Another question regarding that, if, if I may, and this is, uh, maybe a
Speaker:slightly off script, but do you think, and I'm, I would be asking you to
Speaker:speculate as much as I am, but these three branches of the, of the vagus nerve, do
Speaker:you think that they, uh, in any way link up from an evolutionary perspective,
Speaker:um, with the development of the brain?
Speaker:the midbrain, forebrain, and handbrain, um, do you think that there's a direct
Speaker:correlation there between each of these components of the, the vagus
Speaker:nerve developing with the corresponding uh, lobe of, of, well, not lobe,
Speaker:but, uh, uh, part of the brain?
Speaker:I don't know is the honest answer, but it's probably, yeah,
Speaker:I mean, that would make sense.
Speaker:I think one of the, one of the challenges, you know, trauma
Speaker:is a very body experience.
Speaker:And one of the challenges in terms of processing it is that the, you
Speaker:know, the, the newer part of our neocortex, the front part of the
Speaker:brain that developed evolutionary.
Speaker:You know, later on has actually some people think stopped us
Speaker:from processing trauma very well.
Speaker:And and and there's a good example of this.
Speaker:Um, if you think about how antelope on, you know, on the plains of Africa respond
Speaker:when they have a near miss with a predator like a lion, they'll often go and shake
Speaker:and what they're doing is kind of getting rid of that trauma out of the body.
Speaker:And then five seconds later, having, you know, narrowly dodged being eaten, they're
Speaker:eating grass happily, happily as anything.
Speaker:But often as human beings, we have difficulty, uh,
Speaker:processing trauma that swiftly.
Speaker:And I think a lot of it is because Shame becomes a big part of it.
Speaker:It's things like, you know, and that's all driven, isn't it, by the mind, you
Speaker:know, the, and that's our neocortex.
Speaker:It's that idea of, well, I should have done X, Y, and Z.
Speaker:You know, why did I, you know, it's all of those sorts of things rather than,
Speaker:uh, having a level of self-acceptance, I suppose you one might say, which is
Speaker:really the way to, to move through trauma.
Speaker:I think so.
Speaker:Uh, number one, I promise you that I will not ask any more
Speaker:anthropological based questions.
Speaker:Uh, you'll be glad to know, um, purely because that's the extent,
Speaker:the extent of my anthropology.
Speaker:Uh, and number two, yeah, no, I think that's also a good point and
Speaker:something else we'll be chatting about, uh, shortly when we start
Speaker:looking at how to resolve trauma.
Speaker:Um, Yeah, but yes, the fact that animals are able to sort of naturally
Speaker:take, uh, advantage of this sort of this trauma release exercise,
Speaker:quote unquote, type of a response.
Speaker:Um, I think another, another leading theory regarding, uh, trauma is
Speaker:this concept of the self dangerous response, um, which is something I I
Speaker:think holds a lot of merit, uh, in, in a number of, uh, sort of disease
Speaker:states, uh, pathological states.
Speaker:This idea that there is a metabolic adaptation that occurs when the body
Speaker:is exposed to, well, any sort of trauma where mitochondria essentially
Speaker:Uh, at a very high level become less efficient at producing energy,
Speaker:um, and that this process then down regulates a lot of processes across
Speaker:the entire board within the body.
Speaker:Um, it's been really put together by a Dr. Robert Navieux and his lab, but
Speaker:do you think this theory holds merit and that it could explain a lot of the
Speaker:sort of the modern diseases that we're sort of, uh, coming into contact with?
Speaker:And I suppose on top of that, Would you be able to provide a bit more background
Speaker:to what the, uh, about the concept?
Speaker:Yeah, I think it's a really interesting theory.
Speaker:Um, and it's, you know, relatively recent in terms of, you know, scientific inquiry.
Speaker:That's really only the last decade or so that he's been talking about this.
Speaker:I think it's Yeah, maybe let's start with, if we start with what it is.
Speaker:So the cell danger response is something initiated by our mitochondria.
Speaker:So the mitochondria, for those that are not so sure, is these little
Speaker:batteries of our cells that generate energy, amongst other things.
Speaker:And, uh, so what he found with his research is that when we experience some
Speaker:overwhelming challenge to the system.
Speaker:And it doesn't have to be emotional trauma, which is the
Speaker:topic that we're talking about.
Speaker:It could be a virus.
Speaker:It could be something like, you know, something along those lines, another
Speaker:toxin, pathogen, anything like that.
Speaker:If it's a significant enough threat, then you get this cell danger response
Speaker:where the mitochondria start signaling to the rest of our system and to the other
Speaker:mitochondria to say there's a threat.
Speaker:I think of it like, um, You know, there's old old submarine movies where you've got
Speaker:the kind of red warning light going on.
Speaker:It's really that.
Speaker:That's really what's going on in our system.
Speaker:It's really a warning system to say, Hey, we need to change the way we're
Speaker:orientated towards, you know, from being in a sort of thriving state to temporarily
Speaker:more of a survival state because we've got a significant threat on the way.
Speaker:And what happens when that happens is, um, you know, the way they describe it is
Speaker:a bit like, uh, when countries go to war.
Speaker:So on a cellular level, the cells, they close their borders and they
Speaker:stop talking to their neighbors.
Speaker:And of course, that's okay in the short term.
Speaker:That's quite a good survival strategy.
Speaker:But you can see how that might be problematic going forwards because one of
Speaker:the, you know, in order to, uh, for our, the system of our body to function well,
Speaker:We need to be able to share resources and that sort of process breaks down
Speaker:when you get a cell danger response.
Speaker:And this is the key thing to understand.
Speaker:We all get cell danger responses throughout our lives, but the key
Speaker:ones are which are the ones that stay switched on and then don't
Speaker:pass after the threat has gone.
Speaker:And one of the things that trauma can do is keep cell danger responses.
Speaker:Activated long after the trauma has passed and so you get a physiological
Speaker:response in the body that is problematic, particularly over the longer term,
Speaker:because, of course, that trauma and we'll get a particular, let's say,
Speaker:signature response to that trauma.
Speaker:That can then start altering the expression of, you know, all sorts
Speaker:of things on neurotransmitters or hormones, you know, having a knock
Speaker:on effect into the immune system.
Speaker:And this obviously is the sort of segue.
Speaker:I think there's an anecdotal thing, isn't there?
Speaker:The link between trauma and autoimmune diseases that most of us.
Speaker:Are familiar with.
Speaker:I think most of us have come across someone where, you know, Oh, you
Speaker:know, Mrs. Smith developed such and such after her husband died.
Speaker:Yeah, or something like that.
Speaker:And I think we've, we've all come across those theories.
Speaker:I think what's so interesting about the cell danger response is we're perhaps
Speaker:getting to a point where the science is really showing us why that happens.
Speaker:And it's not just a strange, unscientific concept, There's, there's
Speaker:a real kind of thing going on behind, uh, behind the scenes that until
Speaker:now we haven't really understood.
Speaker:So I think it's really exciting because let's see what he comes up
Speaker:with, you know, over the coming years.
Speaker:I mean, he's already talking about, you know, different
Speaker:classifications of different kinds of cell danger responses and maybe
Speaker:developing treatment approaches to.
Speaker:Switch these off once they've been activated.
Speaker:Yeah, and I think what that sort of highlights to me, uh, specifically is
Speaker:that at the end of the day, whatever the triggering event is, is that stress is
Speaker:stress and the body is going to sort of act at acellular level in the same way.
Speaker:And that sort of, again, obviously you've got to treat the underly.
Speaker:issue.
Speaker:But I think that sort of, at least in my mind, sort of simplifies the process a
Speaker:whole lot, because if you can then sort of look at healing through this sort of
Speaker:this, uh, this aspect of balancing the nervous system, you can then really start
Speaker:to help the body get back into homeostasis and allow it to function optimally and get
Speaker:rid of a lot of these triggering events or underlying issues, opposed to trying
Speaker:to sort of forcefully treat the body.
Speaker:into finding remission, you can sort of coax it into, yeah, uh,
Speaker:finding this, this state where it can heal itself, which I think.
Speaker:Um, is incredibly promising and sort of really sort of leads to this holistic
Speaker:model of medicine, probably being the best way forwards, uh, opposed
Speaker:to utilizing, um, sort of traditional pharmacological methods, which just
Speaker:bully cells into operating and don't really take into account the underlying,
Speaker:uh, structures for the want of a better term in the body, which I think is
Speaker:definitely overlooked for the most part.
Speaker:Um, but yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And I think, I think it's an emerging area, isn't it?
Speaker:I think one of the, at the start of the conversation, I was
Speaker:talking about how I kind of, you know, how my career developed.
Speaker:And I think looking back now at when I was trained, I mean, actually, you know, a
Speaker:lot of this cell danger response research wasn't around then anyway, but one of the
Speaker:things that really stands out to me is how You know, chiropractors and osteopaths and
Speaker:other people who are working on the body are not really taught the relationship
Speaker:between the musculoskeletal system.
Speaker:And the other systems of the body, um, and that's really important because, you
Speaker:know, we all, I think all practitioners who work in that arena realize that
Speaker:there is a very strong connection between what people experience from
Speaker:a stress and emotional point of view and what manifests in their body.
Speaker:And so being able to, being aware of that connection and understanding it.
Speaker:Is really, really important if you want to be able to help people because
Speaker:otherwise the danger is all we're doing is falling into that sort of temporary
Speaker:symptomatic relief kind of category and not actually helping our patients
Speaker:get, you know, more permanent relief.
Speaker:You, sorry, you sparked another question in me, another off script
Speaker:question, you're gonna hate me.
Speaker:Um, as a chiropractor, you've probably seen a lot of this, but do you
Speaker:think that there's a relationship directly between fascia and trauma?
Speaker:Do you think, uh, fascia can hold, can hold trauma?
Speaker:Uh, obviously fascia at a very high level being the connective tissue that
Speaker:sort of holds muscles together and creates a lot of, um, Yeah, for want of
Speaker:a better word again, um, imbalances when it becomes dehydrated and locked up.
Speaker:Uh, I've definitely sort of loosely read into some literature, um, about this.
Speaker:Do you, do you think that there's any merit to that specifically
Speaker:or is that a bit far fetched?
Speaker:No, I think I think it's Yeah.
Speaker:Entirely plausible.
Speaker:I mean, I would say that we, we can hold trauma in any, any
Speaker:of the structures of the body.
Speaker:There are some that are particularly common, like I think
Speaker:organ systems are very common.
Speaker:Um, and we hold a lot in our muscular system as well.
Speaker:And so, yeah, that very much interconnects with the fascia.
Speaker:Yeah, I think the simple answer is we hold it all over the place.
Speaker:Awesome.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Let's get back on track.
Speaker:I promise I won't deviate too much more.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So just we've, we've talked about the various ways in which trauma is, is,
Speaker:is possibly triggered in the body.
Speaker:Um, This all leads, uh, sort of one rung further down or further up,
Speaker:further down the ladder, I suppose, uh, to a system in the brain called
Speaker:the HPA axis, the hypothalamic pituitary axis becoming dysfunctional.
Speaker:And I think locally this system is probably most known for its ability to
Speaker:regulate hormones, but what most people don't Uh, understand and, and fair
Speaker:enough is that it's also heavily involved in the immune response through the
Speaker:upregulation of certain stress hormones.
Speaker:Um, would you be so kind as to help, as so kind as to help us understand
Speaker:this, this system and specifically how it then relates to, to trauma?
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, it interconnects with the autonomic nervous system.
Speaker:So the autonomic nervous system, uh, is connected to, you know, the hypothalamus.
Speaker:The, the hypothalamus is often referred to as the window between the nervous
Speaker:system and the endocrine system.
Speaker:It's the bridge.
Speaker:And in the literature they often describe it as the watch tower 'cause
Speaker:it's scanning for threats at all times.
Speaker:And if we experience a threat, then the hypothalamus will then signal
Speaker:to the pituitary, and the pituitary will signal to the adrenals.
Speaker:These are the little glands that sit on top of our kidneys, which I
Speaker:expect most people will have heard of because they're quite well known.
Speaker:Things like adrenal fatigue are sort of quite, you know, they've been in
Speaker:this sort of social consciousness for quite a while, haven't they?
Speaker:Um, and So what happens then is, the reason your body's doing that
Speaker:is because it's saying there's a threat that we need to deal with.
Speaker:And so the, the cortisol and adrenaline that our adrenals release,
Speaker:they are designed to keep us safe.
Speaker:So what do they do?
Speaker:They do things like, they, they increase your blood flow to your muscles.
Speaker:They allow, they allow the secretion of glucose, um, they increase your heart
Speaker:rate, which is why obviously things like high blood pressure, diabetes can
Speaker:be linked to trauma and chronic stress.
Speaker:And of course it's intimately interlinked with our inflammation response, which
Speaker:is why trauma and inflammation, you know, they're directly overlapping with
Speaker:each other because that inflammation response is the healing response.
Speaker:Why does our body do that?
Speaker:Well, because if there's a saber tooth tiger trying to, to kill us, we're going
Speaker:to either run or we're going to fight.
Speaker:So all of these things that I mentioned, like glucose being mobilized, increased
Speaker:blood pressure, you know, blood being pumped to the muscles, that's, that
Speaker:is basically to mobilize us so that we're, we're ready to deal with threats.
Speaker:That's designed to be acute.
Speaker:So, you know, we deal with the situation at hand and then.
Speaker:You know, we're fine and everything calms down.
Speaker:And of course what can happen with people who have Trauma or chronic stress is
Speaker:that they they get chronically stuck in this state of heightened Activation
Speaker:and you can see why that would be problematic because you're burning through
Speaker:resources pretty fast in that state
Speaker:Yeah, and beyond that man.
Speaker:This is sort of the, the biochemist in me sort of, sort
Speaker:of jumping onto the bandwagon.
Speaker:But this is where I think it becomes really interesting because
Speaker:you've got this, uh, this sort of increased immune system response.
Speaker:You've got these heightened levels of cortisol, which as you
Speaker:rightly pointed out, start to liberate glucose from the liver.
Speaker:And then you end up with this sort of cascade events where by you've got
Speaker:high stress hormones, high blood sugar.
Speaker:which then chase after each other, increasing, uh, cortisol,
Speaker:again, increasing blood sugar.
Speaker:And then you end up with this sort of high level of systemic
Speaker:inflammation, which then increases, uh, the stress on the hypothalamus.
Speaker:And it's just this vicious circle.
Speaker:And you end up with this, these heightened levels of cytokines and
Speaker:all these inflammatory molecules the body just can't dispose of.
Speaker:Not because The, you aren't necessarily eating the right diet,
Speaker:which is where sort of the calories are the only thing that matter.
Speaker:And I'm not saying that they, that they aren't, uh, they're definitely a
Speaker:very important part of the equation.
Speaker:But when people start struggling with their metabolic health and
Speaker:things like type 2 diabetes, it's just this overlook for a phenomenon.
Speaker:One day I'll actually get that word right first time around.
Speaker:That is.
Speaker:Sort of just driven again by the stress response and yeah, I'll,
Speaker:I'll turn down the excitement.
Speaker:But I just think it's absolutely fascinating that being a bit
Speaker:stressed or very stressed it's all relative can have this downstream
Speaker:effect on something as complex as.
Speaker:Um, type two diabetes and I'm nowhere insinuating that stress is the only
Speaker:reason for a condition like that forming, but it's just a contributing factor.
Speaker:And yeah, I'll get off my soapbox now, but, um, it's just, I find that
Speaker:the chemistry, they're fascinating and how it just all links up and
Speaker:it's just this beautiful orchestral series of events that just.
Speaker:It just makes sense when you sort of understand how all the bits of
Speaker:the puzzle start to move together.
Speaker:Anyway, I'll shut up now.
Speaker:Um, cool.
Speaker:So I know next we'll be sort of be dealing with how we can maybe start
Speaker:to resolve some of these issues.
Speaker:Um, but first, would you be open to answering just some rapid fire questions?
Speaker:You can answer them.
Speaker:You can answer them as quickly or as As in as much detail as you like,
Speaker:but let's start with the first one.
Speaker:So, um, what are the long term health implications of unresolved trauma?
Speaker:I know we've already touched on a lot of them and I've blabbed off, but.
Speaker:Yeah, we've, we've, we've obviously covered, you know, inflammatory issues
Speaker:and therefore that links into immune dysfunction and autoimmune problems.
Speaker:Uh, you've talked about, uh, the link to insulin resistance
Speaker:and therefore, yeah, more.
Speaker:potential for things like type two diabetes developing.
Speaker:Um, they're all really the, it's a very difficult question to answer
Speaker:because really it's so broad.
Speaker:There can be all sorts of different things.
Speaker:And the key thing to understand is that the trauma will affect
Speaker:people in different ways.
Speaker:You know, in some people it might affect their thyroid and someone else.
Speaker:it might affect their reproductive system.
Speaker:There are lots of different ways in which it can manifest and often it's,
Speaker:it's not just one way for people.
Speaker:It's, it's a multitude of ways.
Speaker:Um, we talked about chronic pain, you know, and the musculoskeletal
Speaker:component for some people that can absolutely be a driver.
Speaker:Um, it's really unique to the individual, but it is highly problematic.
Speaker:And I think one, when you were talking a minute ago about.
Speaker:You know, the, the, the HPA access being such a crucial part of it.
Speaker:I think what you're alluding to, which is so true, is this idea
Speaker:that once you're on the carousel, it's really tricky to get off it.
Speaker:And, you know, if you, for example, if your, if your blood sugar regulation goes
Speaker:a bit haywire, one of the things you're going to do is start craving sugar.
Speaker:And so then you eat more sugar and that makes it even worse.
Speaker:And, you know, it's a part of the, I think.
Speaker:In a way, one of the ways to deal with trauma is to find a way to
Speaker:slow down or jump off that carousel.
Speaker:You know, it's that sort of circuit breaker to help your system start to
Speaker:slowly reset some of these mechanisms.
Speaker:Fair enough.
Speaker:Next one.
Speaker:Um, do you think that a lot of these supplements marketed to support the
Speaker:adrenals are Ashwagandha, Rhodiola, Etc. Are they effective in your
Speaker:opinion and helping to sort of maybe mitigate some of the stress and
Speaker:Then helping us to get out of this?
Speaker:Uh, this, this cycle, or is it not only about lowering or
Speaker:modulating cortisol levels?
Speaker:I think it helps in certain situations.
Speaker:I, I always prefer to go to the root cause rather than band aiding.
Speaker:But that said, there are times where, for whatever reason, it's not possible to do
Speaker:that with someone, or they're not in the right, you know, sometimes someone might
Speaker:be in a situation of ongoing trauma.
Speaker:In which case, you know, taking something to support their, uh, their
Speaker:adrenals and their, their stress response is probably not a bad thing.
Speaker:So I think it's a nuanced question.
Speaker:Sometimes it might be appropriate, but yeah, wherever possible,
Speaker:definitely, you know, we want to go for the root cause, don't we?
Speaker:Yeah, I suppose it beats having a, developing a benzodiazepine
Speaker:addiction, but still.
Speaker:It does, yeah.
Speaker:Okay, cool.
Speaker:Uh, next one.
Speaker:Yeah, a lot of, and again, in recent years, especially in it, uh, and
Speaker:I know we've both seen them at the health optimization summit, but a
Speaker:lot of these devices to help tone the vagus nerve, which is something
Speaker:we'll be diving into shortly, have, uh, have popped up in recent years.
Speaker:Uh, I think there's one called the Sensate and there's another one called
Speaker:the NeuroSim and there's a necklace one.
Speaker:I can't remember what it's called, but anyway, the idea is, is that these.
Speaker:Apparatus, for the want of a better word, um, can help tone the vagus nerve
Speaker:and, um, regulate the nervous system.
Speaker:Do you think they're wholely, merited, or they're a bit gimmicky?
Speaker:Um, I don't have a lot of like, uh, personal experience using them.
Speaker:I have had.
Speaker:One or two patients talk about them and say that they found them really useful.
Speaker:Um, I, I don't see why not.
Speaker:I suppose with, with these sorts of devices, and I'm not, I haven't read,
Speaker:you know, into the research behind them or if they've done studies on
Speaker:it, but I imagine they must have done.
Speaker:Um, I would imagine it's probably a helpful way in.
Speaker:I think with a lot of these sorts of approaches to trauma, I'm.
Speaker:One of the big things I'm a big believer in is that one size doesn't fit all.
Speaker:And I think trying different approaches is really important when you're
Speaker:going down these routes, because some approaches work really well
Speaker:for some people, others not so much.
Speaker:I think maybe the one reservation I would have about using that level of
Speaker:intervention is It feels very nonspecific to me, and also you don't know how
Speaker:someone's going to tolerate that.
Speaker:Um, yeah, I think one of the, one of the key things with, with processing
Speaker:emotional trauma, I think, is doing it from a place of safety.
Speaker:So I guess the danger is that, is there a possibility when you're doing
Speaker:something that induces a state that you're taking the body beyond a place
Speaker:that it's actually comfortable with?
Speaker:And I might be, you know, way off base with that.
Speaker:That's just, just a
Speaker:speculation.
Speaker:Yeah, it's speculative, but it's something in the back of
Speaker:my mind where I would always go.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Yeah, it might be really good.
Speaker:Um, but um, it might also be sensible to sort of treat it with
Speaker:Caution fair enough.
Speaker:Yeah, that makes sense And last one I suppose this sort of tacks on
Speaker:nicely, but do you find any sorts of?
Speaker:Uh, do you find utilizing or tracking HRV at all any at all beneficial at all in any
Speaker:of your patients or do you use it at all?
Speaker:Do you think that being able to monitor, maybe look at it as an objective
Speaker:monitor of, uh, of stress in the body of sympathetic nervous activity, does
Speaker:it, Yeah, does it hold any clinical significance, excuse me, and do you
Speaker:think it's a useful metric to watch?
Speaker:Yeah, I think it's funny actually, I remember reading not so long ago
Speaker:some people, some scientists, you know, in America talking about HRV
Speaker:and being a bit dubious about its use.
Speaker:I do find it useful, not in isolation, but yeah, I think, I think it's very handy and
Speaker:I do have patients where We have tracked, um, their HRV and actually made it our,
Speaker:our sort of mission to look at what are the stresses to the vagus nerve, um, that
Speaker:are reducing the HRV and then, uh, and then steadily over, you know, sort of 12
Speaker:month period worked on increasing it and simultaneously what's been interesting
Speaker:with those, with those patients is they have noticed feeling a significant change
Speaker:increase in their sense of well being.
Speaker:So I think it is really important.
Speaker:I think often you'll, you'll find some people just say, Oh, for
Speaker:some reason I've got a low HRV and you'll often find actually there are
Speaker:hidden reasons why that's going on.
Speaker:Um, so, um, and then, you know, there is a lot of potential to shift that.
Speaker:Obviously we can shift it with our, our lifestyle as well.
Speaker:You know, how we're exercising, are we doing meditation?
Speaker:Are we eating properly?
Speaker:You know, all of those things that stress our, our autonomic nervous system.
Speaker:But I think it is useful.
Speaker:I think it's worth saying that if you're going to do it, you probably want to
Speaker:make sure that you get some good kits to, um, To make sure you're measuring
Speaker:it properly because some of them are a bit Uh a bit dodgy you always want to
Speaker:measure it through the night So things like aura ring or the whoop strap,
Speaker:they're great ways of measuring it.
Speaker:Um, I find largely in practice that it's driven by whether people want to do it
Speaker:or not Because you know those bits of technology, they're not the cheapest.
Speaker:It's not everyone wants to do that um, but where people do want to do it,
Speaker:I think it's really really useful in the same way that I'll often encourage
Speaker:people to track their sleep, which you can do with those same devices.
Speaker:Again, really useful as an outcome measure.
Speaker:Um, and it links in with what we're talking about, of course, because
Speaker:if you get elevated levels of cortisol, it inhibits melatonin.
Speaker:So people generally have sleep problems as well that goes hand in hand with that.
Speaker:It's something we'll have to talk about off air, but I've been working, well,
Speaker:just in my spare time on this sort of way of sort of modulating sort of four
Speaker:metrics, lactate, uh, exogenous ketones, uh, blood sugar through the use of a
Speaker:CGM, and then looking at HRV as well, those four metrics, I'm pretty sure
Speaker:that you can govern, uh, as a proxy for sorts of cortisol and adrenal function.
Speaker:Almost exactly what is going on in terms of oxidative stress, the metabolic
Speaker:state of someone's body, uh, as well as the, yeah, again, as a proxy for their,
Speaker:for their overall levels of stress.
Speaker:One, one thing, sorry to interrupt you, Rob, but I think one thing
Speaker:actually that's probably really useful.
Speaker:It occurs to me to mention is I have a bit of a theory.
Speaker:Um, I should probably get around to check, checking, checking this in the
Speaker:literature, but because it makes sense to me that the sleep thing, I think
Speaker:you'll find that people with high levels of trauma who've experienced
Speaker:a lot will have depressed deep sleep.
Speaker:So you're looking at really under an hour and in some cases really
Speaker:reduced amounts of deep sleep and increased REM sleep because our REM
Speaker:sleep is, is, is to process the day.
Speaker:And one of the things, if people are highly traumatized, they tend to get more
Speaker:emotionally overwhelmed through the day.
Speaker:So they're going to then have to process that at nighttime.
Speaker:But because their state, their system is on high alert all the time, they're not
Speaker:going to go into states of deep sleep.
Speaker:Essentially your body is saying, yep, don't sleep.
Speaker:There's a saber tooth tiger trying to kill you.
Speaker:As far as I'm aware, GABA is, uh, sorry, excuse me.
Speaker:Deep sleep is regulated by noradrenaline to a large extent.
Speaker:Um, so.
Speaker:It goes without saying that if you're stressed, you're gonna
Speaker:have high levels of no adrenaline.
Speaker:Um, yeah.
Speaker:And less deep sleep.
Speaker:So that makes perfect sense.
Speaker:I'll have to double check myself on that, but I think, I think one of,
Speaker:and one of the, I have seen this with some patients where you'll find that doing,
Speaker:you know, when they do a certain amount of trauma work, their deep sleep will
Speaker:come up and the REM sleep will go down.
Speaker:It's interesting and it's logical.
Speaker:I think
Speaker:it is.
Speaker:It's completely logical.
Speaker:But I, yeah, I don't think I've read anything on a, on a research level where
Speaker:they've, they've kind of gone there.
Speaker:Um, maybe I'm sure someone's probably, um, picked that out.
Speaker:They must've done, cause it's quite, quite a logical step to take.
Speaker:I'll have to put you into contact with Greg Potter.
Speaker:We had him on the podcast recently.
Speaker:I don't know if you're familiar with Greg's work.
Speaker:He's a, he's a, I suppose he's in everything actually.
Speaker:He's got a PhD from Leeds.
Speaker:It's sharp as a, as sharp as a button is Greg, but his, um, he's an exercise
Speaker:physiologist who then went into looking specifically into metabolism, but his,
Speaker:uh, we've actually got a podcast with him, but I just said that, but yeah,
Speaker:anyway, his baby really is sleep and he'd be an excellent person to run this past.
Speaker:I'll send you his details afterwards, but he would be able
Speaker:to answer that, uh, in far more accurate detail than I ever would.
Speaker:Anyway, um, we're going off topic again.
Speaker:This has become something of a habit.
Speaker:It's fun.
Speaker:It's nice to have a few
Speaker:deep thoughts.
Speaker:You don't want it to be a linear journey, do you?
Speaker:Of course not.
Speaker:And it's, it's mainly my fault anyway.
Speaker:Um, okay, cool.
Speaker:So let's get into the nuts and bolts of this, how we, how to deal with trauma,
Speaker:which I think is what most people who are in this state or in this position
Speaker:are probably most interested in.
Speaker:Um, I've got a list here and I'd love it if I could just go sort
Speaker:of voice one, each one of them.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:through sort of pick it up.
Speaker:And then if you could just sort of go into a bit more detail within, within
Speaker:that specific topic, um, we've already covered vagal nerve stimulation.
Speaker:Um, so I suppose the next one really would be to touch on somatic experiencing,
Speaker:uh, which was initially sort of put together, uh, by Peter Delevigne
Speaker:and is, and is very broadly a body orientated approach to healing trauma.
Speaker:Um, What do you know about, uh, somatic experiencing and do you
Speaker:think it's a valid modality?
Speaker:I think it's very useful and it makes sense because we store trauma in the body.
Speaker:So, uh, somatic experiences, experiencing is, is about connecting
Speaker:to those sensations in the body, um, and becoming more aware of them.
Speaker:You know, one of the other byproducts of trauma is We become,
Speaker:uh, desensitized to our body.
Speaker:We can no longer feel what's going on.
Speaker:Um, sorry, dissociated is the word I was looking for.
Speaker:Um, so really what you want to try and do if you want to heal from trauma
Speaker:is it's a process of reintegration.
Speaker:We go into this sort of fragmented state when we get traumatized.
Speaker:So it's really about, uh, feeling into that.
Speaker:And that's not always comfortable, obviously,
Speaker:um,
Speaker:it's, it's a bit like, it's essentially like thawing a block of ice, isn't it?
Speaker:What you're trying to do is awaken those parts of your body that,
Speaker:that have become, uh, dissociated.
Speaker:And that's really at the core of somatic experiencing.
Speaker:So I think that's really useful.
Speaker:Um, I think as we said, as I said earlier, I think the key is with whatever may
Speaker:down, we're going to talk about more, obviously, with all of these, it's,
Speaker:it's worth, if you are someone who's, who's experienced trauma and you're
Speaker:wanting to process that is try different approaches because you may well find
Speaker:that different ones work at different stages, uh, for different reasons.
Speaker:So, uh, it's that sort of, you know, multitude of approaches is really,
Speaker:really useful because of that sort of fragmentation effect of, of trauma,
Speaker:it's not always easy to put, you know, all the pieces back together again.
Speaker:And this is obviously where a personalized approach and working
Speaker:with somebody who is learned in these, obviously different modalities can help.
Speaker:I know just from personal experience, I'm trying to work through my own problems.
Speaker:It's quite.
Speaker:It's, it's often very easy to identify the various modalities that will work for a
Speaker:given issue, but figuring out the order of operations, when you should do something,
Speaker:how long you should do it for, and when you should switch up the modality, that
Speaker:is nine times out of 10, the trick and where most people go wrong when they try
Speaker:and do all these issues by themselves and why they don't find success.
Speaker:And this is inadvertently turned into an advert for your services, but I do think
Speaker:it's, it's, I do think it is, it is.
Speaker:It's quite important to say that as much as we're trying to obviously help
Speaker:the, the listeners and figuring out how that they can, um, process some of
Speaker:these issues by themselves quite often.
Speaker:Um, you do need a helping hand and it's not necessarily.
Speaker:Uh, and, and advert for your local trauma therapist, but really it
Speaker:just sort of, it can take months, if not years off the learning process.
Speaker:And, uh, yeah, you can send me my check in the mail, but, um,
Speaker:I think, I think you're right though.
Speaker:I mean, we all know, don't we?
Speaker:It's a bit like when you go to the gym.
Speaker:You know, if you, if you hire a personal trainer, you're going to
Speaker:get from A to B quicker and probably learn more on that, on that process.
Speaker:And I think it is useful to, you know, make use of, of, um, people around you,
Speaker:practitioners or whoever it might be who do have expertise because, um, Yeah, if
Speaker:I think about my own journey, there's numerous examples where I think, you
Speaker:know, I look back and I go, well, I could have done that a lot more efficiently
Speaker:if I'd known, you know, a bit more.
Speaker:Um, I think the great thing is now this is the kind of dialogue,
Speaker:um, that probably wouldn't have been happening 10, 20 years ago.
Speaker:It's, it's.
Speaker:field.
Speaker:There's a obviously we've covered some of the emerging research behind a lot of it.
Speaker:And I think that hopefully going forwards, doing trauma work will
Speaker:be viewed in a different way.
Speaker:And I think there is already less Yeah,
Speaker:no, it's, there's definitely a lot less sort of negative stigma associated
Speaker:with it, especially as sort of in men.
Speaker:Um, I think a lot of, uh, it's, it's very traditional and sort
Speaker:of cognitive behavioral therapy.
Speaker:But.
Speaker:Uh, services like better help and such have sort of definitely, I mean, they
Speaker:advertise on every other YouTube channel, companies like that are definitely opening
Speaker:the door to individuals sort of being more open about these sorts of issues and sorts
Speaker:of, which is important because, uh, we've, as you've mentioned, uh, we've mentioned
Speaker:multiple times, we've gone up in a, in a society where, um, yeah, it's been.
Speaker:Very much the norm to just hide everything away and trap everything
Speaker:and just hold on to everything which and if I, if I do give myself credit
Speaker:for this one, isn't an excellent segue into my next, uh, modality, which is
Speaker:about trauma release exercises, which I know I was quite proud of that one.
Speaker:There was, there we go.
Speaker:I'll, I'll give myself credit.
Speaker:Um, initially put together by David, uh, Paselli, uh, TRE, uh, goes very much
Speaker:hand in hand with somatic experiencing.
Speaker:Uh, and it's the idea of physically releasing sorts of quote unquote,
Speaker:and correct me if I'm wrong, psychogenic trauma or sort of
Speaker:trauma that is trapped in the body.
Speaker:Um, Yeah, what do you think of that one and could you run
Speaker:through it with it with us?
Speaker:Yeah, I mean that it really is you sort of lie on your back with your
Speaker:legs, you know Semi supine and then I mean that that's this is one form.
Speaker:There are other forms but the sort of classic thing is and then Gradually
Speaker:opening your hips, um, and sort of going up and down until what happens
Speaker:is a natural, almost shaking effect, like a tremor in the body and the
Speaker:body starts to release tension.
Speaker:Um, it's a bit like what we were talking about earlier, really with
Speaker:the antelope in, in the, you know, in the, uh, in the African planes.
Speaker:It's a bit like that.
Speaker:It's our way of accessing that.
Speaker:Yeah, I think another great way, and I certainly know people who've
Speaker:used that and found that helpful.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:I think, again, with these sorts of ones as well, these are what I would describe
Speaker:as fairly non specific ways of working.
Speaker:Um, in other words, it's not like you're going, I want to work on trauma A to do
Speaker:with X, Y, and Z. And it's worth saying, I think, that if you are going to work
Speaker:on trauma, it's useful to Uh, work in a way where you're doing specific and
Speaker:nonspecific to get that sort of overlap.
Speaker:And I also think probably one thing we haven't talked about, um,
Speaker:is laying the foundations right.
Speaker:And maybe we'll come on to this.
Speaker:I think we are going to come on to it, aren't we?
Speaker:I'll stop there and let you go to the next one, Rob.
Speaker:Yeah, fair.
Speaker:Okay, uh, controversial, uh, and definitely something that's sort of
Speaker:slowly gaining traction, but looking into psychedelic assisted psychotherapies and
Speaker:psychedelics in general for dissolution of the ego and removing these, um,
Speaker:and it's not something I profess to understand, but removing these.
Speaker:These blocks in consciousness that seem to drive this excessive
Speaker:sympathetic activity or this excessive trauma What are your thoughts on
Speaker:these psychedelics, specifically things like psilocybin and MDMA?
Speaker:Yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it?
Speaker:I mean it was it was being researched back in the 50s and I believe
Speaker:even into the 60s originally in book Before it was shut down.
Speaker:So there's a long history here of people looking at this, but it's, you know,
Speaker:really the last decade or so that they've started re, you know, going back into it.
Speaker:So you've got the, the maps Institute looking at it across the pond in America.
Speaker:Uh, and you've got Imperial.
Speaker:Here in um, uh, yeah who are also looking at it Uh, and they've been I mean if
Speaker:you I don't know if you've looked at any of the research rob, but that they It's
Speaker:really exciting what they've been finding.
Speaker:They've been finding that uh for some people Um, they can have quite profound
Speaker:shifts, um It's worth saying that they, the way that they do these, uh, you know,
Speaker:uh, these treatments, and it's obviously at the moment not readily available.
Speaker:It's only for people who, who get involved in the trials, um, that
Speaker:it's done in a very specific way.
Speaker:So I think most people think about when, and for those people psilocybin is the
Speaker:active ingredient in magic mushrooms.
Speaker:So probably most people, when they think about that, they think, really?
Speaker:You know, that just makes me think about, you know, a bunch of people
Speaker:giggling, you know, around the fire or whatever it might be, but, um, the way
Speaker:that they use it is very different.
Speaker:In other words, what they found is that setting an intention and doing
Speaker:it in a very introspective way.
Speaker:So typically people will lie down, um, they'll have someone in the
Speaker:room with them just to support them if they need it, but they'll be
Speaker:blindfolded and they often will.
Speaker:You know, have headphones on just listening to some relaxing
Speaker:music through the journey.
Speaker:Um, so it's very, a very specific way of doing it.
Speaker:Um, and I think most of us know people who've had bad experiences
Speaker:taking magic mushrooms in their youth.
Speaker:Um, and, you know, The point being that context is really important.
Speaker:If you're doing it in an environment where you don't feel safe, then these
Speaker:things, you know, it's really, you should be treating it with caution.
Speaker:It's also worth saying, we're not advocating magic mushroom use
Speaker:because it's actually illegal.
Speaker:So what you're saying is, I can't go to Wales, into a sheep farm, pick a
Speaker:bunch of mushrooms and light a bonfire?
Speaker:I'm, I'm not giving you any advice of the kind Rob, um, yeah,
Speaker:it's more than my job is worth.
Speaker:Um, but yeah, I mean, I think the research that they're doing
Speaker:is, um, really interesting.
Speaker:I mean, they've got some really, you can look it up.
Speaker:It's readily available on the internet.
Speaker:And, and the results have been quite startling.
Speaker:I mean, they're blowing the results you get with standard anti antidepressants
Speaker:completely out of the water.
Speaker:Um, and of course, without the, the, the, the difficulty of side effects and so on.
Speaker:So, um, I, I know one or two people who are involved in that sort of area
Speaker:and that they're thinking that it won't be too long before it will be readily
Speaker:available for members of the public.
Speaker:I mean, if it's, if the results are as good as they say they are,
Speaker:um, then that's really exciting.
Speaker:It's probably worth mentioning one thing about this, which is the
Speaker:mechanism, because I think also a lot of people, um, view things
Speaker:like magic mushrooms or psilocybin.
Speaker:They, it kind of gets lumped in with other drug use.
Speaker:And it's worth saying that we're talking about something totally different here
Speaker:because we're, this is looking at it from a therapeutic point of view, not.
Speaker:using it hedonistically.
Speaker:And what, what psilocybin does is it, it causes, uh, a part of the brain
Speaker:called the default mode network to shut down the default mode network you could
Speaker:broadly think of as our ego structure.
Speaker:So if you like, it's the tunnel vision way we are experiencing our world.
Speaker:that gets switched off.
Speaker:And so I think it makes total sense that some people have been
Speaker:having profound experiences.
Speaker:I mean, if you look at the research, one of the things that they say is that
Speaker:most of the people who've undergone this journey would link would, would
Speaker:say that the psilocybin trip for one of a better way of describing it was.
Speaker:Probably in their top three most profound experiences of
Speaker:their lives, most meaningful.
Speaker:That's quite something.
Speaker:So in other words, they've learned something quite profound and
Speaker:that that disengaging of the ego structure often what that leads
Speaker:to is a sense of Connection to the whole, you know, it's a bit.
Speaker:Yes real spiritual thing feeling like okay.
Speaker:I'm simultaneously aware of Um, my own insignificance and my own power,
Speaker:you know, that sort of dichotomy.
Speaker:Um, whereas I think when we're trapped in our ego structure, we tend to be very
Speaker:much in a survival state all the time.
Speaker:So taking these substances, potentially what's going on is it,
Speaker:it takes us to a place beyond that into a place of greater meaning.
Speaker:And that's probably explains why there's quite a few people who,
Speaker:who have said that just taking it once cured their depression.
Speaker:I mean, that's quite something, isn't it?
Speaker:Um, quite, quite extraordinary.
Speaker:The other, the other one probably to mention, which is,
Speaker:is illegal is, is, um, ayahuasca.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And, and, and probably a lot of people have, I mean, there are others
Speaker:as well, but, um, again, it's not something that's available, but.
Speaker:Anecdotally, I've certainly come across people who found that profoundly helpful.
Speaker:Again, I think, you know, for anyone, and I'm not advocating anyone, I think,
Speaker:I think with these sorts of things, if you are going to go there, you
Speaker:really need to do your research and you really need to know what you're doing.
Speaker:Um, and you need to be doing it with people who equally know what they're
Speaker:doing, um, because there are, um, you know, people doing it, um, who
Speaker:don't really know how to do it safely.
Speaker:So yeah.
Speaker:Um, but that's, I mean, who knows whether that's something
Speaker:they'll, they'll, they'll research.
Speaker:I mean, there's a long tradition, ayahuasca is this.
Speaker:Concoction of herbs that that comes from South American tribes, and they've
Speaker:used it as a, you know, part of their spiritual traditions For generations.
Speaker:I think in the West we're a bit more suspicious of things like that
Speaker:But who knows maybe that's starting to change and there's a little bit
Speaker:more open mindedness on the horizon.
Speaker:We shall see
Speaker:yeah, and I think so and To your point, I think a lot of the negative
Speaker:stigma associated with these compounds, especially arises from the 70s and
Speaker:especially arises from, uh, these instances where, yeah, where people sort
Speaker:of did mistreat them to a large extent.
Speaker:Um, I suppose the only one we haven't really mentioned is ketamine, which.
Speaker:I believe this is being, it's definitely legal in some states, states in the
Speaker:States and is being utilized by some practitioners here in the U. K. Um, have
Speaker:you had any sort of experience sort of by proxy with, uh, with, with ketamine
Speaker:or have you had any, had any patients?
Speaker:I haven't,
Speaker:but again, I've, like you, I've heard that they're researching it.
Speaker:I mean, for me, the, the one thing that I, I, you know, when I think about sort
Speaker:of using the, I mean, I'm sure they may be useful, but one of the things I think
Speaker:to bear in mind with things like MDMA and ketamine is that you're usually going to
Speaker:get a downswing on the back of using them.
Speaker:You don't get that with psilocybin, you know, for example, with MDMA, because
Speaker:it depletes your serotonin, you're going to feel really low for a couple
Speaker:of weeks or a week or so afterwards.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:Personally, I don't quite understand logic in quite the same way, but I mean, Hey,
Speaker:the research seems to be given yielding some positive, interesting results.
Speaker:So maybe in the right context, I think again, like that's maybe the sort of
Speaker:thing where you need to really have someone, you know, who's talking you
Speaker:through it and knows how to do it properly so that you can mitigate some of
Speaker:those, um, those potential side effects.
Speaker:Um, but yeah.
Speaker:I mean, it's, it's, it's interesting, isn't it, that they're
Speaker:exploring all of these things.
Speaker:And I think, like you say, hopefully what it will do is move this stigma away.
Speaker:Um, you know, because using certain, um, you know, psychedelics in a way that is
Speaker:not about, you know, hedonism or, you know, escapism, but rather for healing.
Speaker:It's a very different approach and obviously how the protocol around
Speaker:that will be entirely different.
Speaker:So I think it's really important to be, you know, for those people who
Speaker:are a bit skeptical about this, just, yeah, maybe just be, be open minded
Speaker:to the possibility that the, we're talking about two completely different,
Speaker:you know, ends of the spectrum here.
Speaker:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker:Um, okay.
Speaker:We'll just, we'll just move on from ketamine.
Speaker:Um, okay.
Speaker:That's awesome.
Speaker:Uh, Cool.
Speaker:So the last one I've got on my list is non sleep deep rest, which is
Speaker:something Andrew Huberman's gone on a lot about, also known as yoga nidra.
Speaker:Um, it's something I'll be honest, I know very little about, um,
Speaker:but do you feel, and it's in my mind, it's almost more of a,
Speaker:a tool to aid in relaxation than it is to something, than it is something maybe
Speaker:to directly use to deal with trauma.
Speaker:Um, again, I don't know much about it, but do you find, do you ever
Speaker:prescribe it as a, as a tool?
Speaker:Do you ever use it as a tool?
Speaker:Do you think there's any merit in it?
Speaker:I think it's really powerful.
Speaker:Yeah, I think it's incredibly useful.
Speaker:You can use it for a variety of things.
Speaker:It's very good at offsetting loss of sleep, which I think is
Speaker:the particular angle that Andrew Hooperman tends to promote it from.
Speaker:Um, so if you've had a bad night's sleep, it's great to do that and it will
Speaker:mitigate, uh, some of that bad sleep, give your dopamine levels a bit of a rise.
Speaker:Um, And, you know, allow you to function basically, you know,
Speaker:sometimes when we've had a bad night's sleep, it can be really tough
Speaker:concept to get motivated for the day.
Speaker:And, you know, sometimes you have those kind of days where You
Speaker:know, a poor night's sleep really just, uh, kiboshes your day.
Speaker:And so it's a great way of, you know, 20 minutes, 30 minutes of that.
Speaker:Um, I think they say there's a, there's, there's a phrase where
Speaker:they say 30 minutes of yoga nidra is equivalent to eight hours sleep.
Speaker:I'm not sure that's entirely true, but it's certainly, and I use it.
Speaker:A lot.
Speaker:I think it's really, yeah, a great way of just giving your system a boost.
Speaker:Fantastic.
Speaker:You can use it in a variety of ways.
Speaker:You can use it first thing in the morning if you've had a bad night's sleep.
Speaker:In the middle of the day, if you want to sort of mimic a sort of map state,
Speaker:uh, sorry, a nap state, um, you know, we know that's very good, uh, very healthy.
Speaker:Um, or you, if you're having trouble getting to sleep, you can
Speaker:also use it at the end of the day.
Speaker:And obviously people who have a lot of trauma often have, uh,
Speaker:difficulties around sleeping.
Speaker:So that's where it can be useful.
Speaker:And that obviously, if we go back to that circuit breaker
Speaker:effect, allows you then to heal.
Speaker:If you're getting your sleep, the sleep that you need.
Speaker:So it's really useful from that point of view.
Speaker:I think what you said right at the beginning is really true.
Speaker:That, yeah, it may not be a direct trauma release, but I think what you're doing
Speaker:is you're putting your nervous system in, you know, if you do it regularly, and
Speaker:I do have some patients where I've said to them, I want you to do this daily,
Speaker:so that they are regularly going into that restful, parasympathetic state.
Speaker:Um, when, and these are people often who really rarely ever, experience that.
Speaker:And so they're in a kind of constant state of exhaustion because you
Speaker:can't really process trauma if your nervous system doesn't feel safe.
Speaker:So using it, using it from that perspective is really, really helpful.
Speaker:And, and, and actually, I mean, there was, I know there've been studies using
Speaker:it for PTSD sufferers, um, in Uh, the context of, you know, the, the military,
Speaker:so getting them to do, uh, uh, yoga, Nidra and getting some really, you know,
Speaker:interesting, strong results from it.
Speaker:So I think you can get spontaneous trauma release through doing it
Speaker:certainly, but you're, you're doing it obviously in a more non specific way.
Speaker:Fair enough.
Speaker:That's.
Speaker:Yeah, I think that that's an amazing summary.
Speaker:And what we'll do in the show notes is we'll link to, uh, examples of all of
Speaker:these modalities in the show notes and to their respective websites as well.
Speaker:So this is a practical takeaway for the listener too.
Speaker:I think there's one more probably to mention, Rob, the
Speaker:EMDR, we haven't mentioned that.
Speaker:We haven't.
Speaker:And I was also going to actually ask you about touch therapy, uh,
Speaker:specific, uh, specifically things like things like chiropractic,
Speaker:things like deep tissue massage.
Speaker:Um, but yeah, let's start with EMDR.
Speaker:Yeah, so EMDR is, is another one where they, is, you know, where you do eye
Speaker:movements linked with thinking about particular traumatic episodes, um, and
Speaker:using via the eye reflexes, they're able to discharge some of these traumas.
Speaker:So this is a great example, maybe of, of, of a trauma, you know,
Speaker:uh, process that's more specific.
Speaker:really useful.
Speaker:So if someone, if someone has a specific trauma that they want to
Speaker:work on, um, really useful to go to a practitioner who does EMDR.
Speaker:It's something completely new to me.
Speaker:What if fundamentally mechanistically is happening behind EMDR?
Speaker:Do you know offhand?
Speaker:Well, I'm not sure that that's fully understood, but I think the idea is
Speaker:that there's a connection neurologically between the reflexes in the eyes.
Speaker:And, uh, how, how we then process, uh, trauma, I mean, EMDR means eye movement,
Speaker:desensitization and reprocessing.
Speaker:So really what you're doing is trying to get a patient to
Speaker:recall a distressing memory.
Speaker:And I suppose access that neurologically and then get the system to dissolve it.
Speaker:As you're doing that, working through, it's often used as a
Speaker:sort of psychotherapy technique.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And I was going to say it sounds very, it sounds very much something that you would
Speaker:maybe add as a sort of a bolt on mechanism to something like cognitive behavioral
Speaker:therapy or something in that vein.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But I've heard really good, really
Speaker:good things about it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And then lots of people who found that very, very helpful.
Speaker:Awesome.
Speaker:We'll, we'll be sure to include it in the show notes then and, and,
Speaker:and various forms of touch therapy.
Speaker:Uh, do you find that, and I suppose you can maybe attest to this personally,
Speaker:do you find working on people in a very sort of mechanical sort of
Speaker:hands on sense, is that a good way of releasing a lot of trauma that's maybe
Speaker:stored, uh, in a very physical sense?
Speaker:Um, I think it depends, but yes, I mean, uh, there are all sorts of
Speaker:ways of, of, uh, accessing that.
Speaker:I mean, you could do a more non specific way, you know, doing, having,
Speaker:for example, regular massage is a bit akin to doing something like, um, Yoga
Speaker:nidra where it's more non specific.
Speaker:It's you know, we obviously hold a lot of that tension in our bodies And I think
Speaker:many people probably know anecdotally examples of people having you know Very
Speaker:tearful episodes following a massage because they're releasing something So
Speaker:we know it's there Uh, there are also certain chiropractors and osteopaths who
Speaker:have more specific, uh, techniques that are useful in, in working in this area.
Speaker:Um, so that's probably one of those things you just need to, you know,
Speaker:explore with your local practitioner if you're interested and to see if they,
Speaker:if they are able to work in that way.
Speaker:Um, and again, it goes back to what we said earlier, that it's the ideal is
Speaker:to use lots of different modalities, try different things and see what
Speaker:you find really works for you.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:No, I think it's, it's something we both mentioned you more specifically
Speaker:than me, but when dealing with a complex issue such as this and all the.
Speaker:Uh, the associated problems that can potentially sort of go along with it.
Speaker:Um, you really do have to sort of utilize as many of these tools, um,
Speaker:as you can, uh, and you, and see as everything as everything as a tool
Speaker:in the toolbox and not necessarily as the cure all for all your ailments.
Speaker:Um, I think very, you'll always have an outlier life is a bell curve.
Speaker:You're always going to have somebody who's just going to
Speaker:react perfectly to one modality.
Speaker:And
Speaker:I think it's also worth saying, Rob, that, that, um, you know, again, it
Speaker:sort of speaks to what we said earlier about finding someone you trust, who
Speaker:understands this process, because equally it, you got to be careful and it,
Speaker:obviously it depends what the nature of your trauma is, what you've or traumas
Speaker:that you've experienced that you're wanting to work on, but it's worth.
Speaker:Also being aware that, you know, sometimes the going down this route can
Speaker:be a bit like opening Pandora's box, you know It's not always comfortable.
Speaker:It's not always easy So, you know if you want to do that kind of work It's very
Speaker:sensible to find someone you trust who you can have in your corner Who can guide
Speaker:you through it and be a source of support who knows what they're talking about
Speaker:Yeah, and I couldn't have said a better myself um I've taken up a lot of your
Speaker:time this afternoon, but I have just one final question, which is something
Speaker:I like to ask, have started to ask at the end of each of these podcasts.
Speaker:And that's, I suppose, a great, a great way to summarize
Speaker:everything we talked about.
Speaker:But if you could offer the listener who may be struggling or going through some
Speaker:sort of health challenge that could have a root in trauma, just five tips
Speaker:off the top of your head or five ways that they could start improving their
Speaker:health today, what would you recommend?
Speaker:Number one.
Speaker:I think focus on getting the basics right.
Speaker:So make sure you're sleeping properly, uh, make sure you're exercising,
Speaker:make sure you're eating properly.
Speaker:Those sort of basically, you know, if you like the Holy Trinity, um, because that
Speaker:just gives you a really good foundation for also navigating it really well.
Speaker:I would say, um, number two, probably find yourself someone who has experience
Speaker:in it, um, who works in that way.
Speaker:Whatever that might be.
Speaker:And there's various fields that kind of kind of, you know, feed into that.
Speaker:That's probably number two.
Speaker:Number three, um, What else would I recommend?
Speaker:We're probably going back to what we said earlier.
Speaker:I would almost term it like you could call it a spiritual practice, but I don't
Speaker:mean it in the sense of, you know, having to take on a set of beliefs, but doing
Speaker:something like Tai Chi, yoga, Qigong.
Speaker:Those kind of modalities where you are connecting somatically to your body.
Speaker:I find, in my experience, that people who have a practice like that, they process
Speaker:trauma much faster and much deeper.
Speaker:So they get from A to B quicker.
Speaker:And, you know, I always think I'm all about how do we get from A to B quickly
Speaker:and safely, obviously, but yeah, often, and also those people, I think they're
Speaker:more equipped to deal with the bumps in the road because the state of their
Speaker:nervous system is a little bit healthier.
Speaker:I would say that's a huge one.
Speaker:When you're ready.
Speaker:Number four is, here's a don't do maybe.
Speaker:Um, if you're experiencing a high level of trauma, don't meditate.
Speaker:Okay, it's a hot take.
Speaker:Yeah, but I think a lot of people may not, may kind of go, why is that then?
Speaker:Because, you can, the danger is you can actually re traumatize
Speaker:yourself if it's too intense.
Speaker:So, and maybe you could say number five is, when you're ready, meditate.
Speaker:Fair enough.
Speaker:Um, you know, once you've got to a point where your nervous system is a
Speaker:little, a little easier, a little calmer,
Speaker:more regulated, everything's
Speaker:a bit more regulated, then you can do it.
Speaker:Um, how do you know the difference I suppose is going to be the next question?
Speaker:Well, because if it feels, if meditating feels like sitting on hot
Speaker:coals, as my old meditation teacher used to call it, you're probably.
Speaker:Yeah, probably pushing too hard.
Speaker:It's, it's a fine balance where, you know, if it's feeling totally
Speaker:overwhelming and your nervous system is, is really feeling stressed by
Speaker:it, then it's not doing you any good.
Speaker:Of course, yeah.
Speaker:I think you could say the same thing about, uh, and I'll
Speaker:stop after this, I promise.
Speaker:Uh, the same thing about getting into a sauna with a high toxic load
Speaker:without knowing what you're doing or spending too much time doing it.
Speaker:You're gonna liberate toxins and then recirculate them through the
Speaker:body and reabsorb them and end up with just as much of an issue.
Speaker:So I, I think it's about doing it slowly and bite sized a bit so that the body
Speaker:can auto regulate, find homeostasis and then start to heal itself.
Speaker:Again, that is going to be different for different people, isn't it?
Speaker:Some people will be able to meditate straight away if they're
Speaker:wanting to work in that way.
Speaker:Other people will not.
Speaker:I think as well, go back to what I said for point number three,
Speaker:which is it's better to start with something like yoga, qigong.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You know, Tai Chi, those things because they're not so confronting, let's put
Speaker:it that way, because you're, you've got movement as part of that, that basis,
Speaker:whereas sitting there and being totally with, you know, all of that stuff
Speaker:churning around your head, that can be very, very intense for some people.
Speaker:We're not going to go on another tangent.
Speaker:I'm going to for your time and I'm going to ask people where they can
Speaker:find you if they'd like to connect.
Speaker:Well, my website is, uh, foundationforlife.
Speaker:co. uk.
Speaker:And I'm based in Oxfordshire, just outside Oxford.
Speaker:That's perfect.
Speaker:So if people want to get in touch or they want any advice, they're,
Speaker:they're most welcome to do that.
Speaker:Brilliant.
Speaker:We'll link to all your social media channels and websites in the show notes,
Speaker:as well as all the other, uh, list of references, sites and practical takeaways.
Speaker:Thank you so much for your time, Johnny.
Speaker:I really appreciate it.
Speaker:Um, this has just been the beginning.
Speaker:I have so many more questions, but we'll bookmark that for another day.
Speaker:Pleasure.
Speaker:Thanks for your time, Rob.
