#044 Morley Robbins - Copper, Iron & The Hidden Root of Chronic Disease
Morley Robbins is the creator and founder of The Root Cause Protocol and the Magnesium Advocacy Group. Morley received his BA in Biology from Denison University in Ohio and holds an MBA from George Washington University in healthcare administration. Morley has trained in wellness coaching, nutritional counselling, and functional diagnostic nutrition.
He is also known as the Magnesium Man due to his extensive research into and understanding of magnesium’s role in the body. Morley’s research saw him deciphering the intricate relationship between magnesium, iron, copper, and calcium as a way to free ourselves from illness and dis-ease. As a certified health coach with an expertise in Hair Tissue Mineral Analysis (HTMA), Morley has performed thousands of RCP one-on-one consultations, helping people feel better by getting to the root cause of their symptoms.
> During our discussion, you’ll discover:
(00:05:39) Terrain vs germ theory
(00:09:01) Why is there such a prevalence of chronic disease in modern society
(00:18:04) Copper’s direct role in supporting antioxidant activity
(00:20:09) What is ferroptosis
(00:23:28) Ceruloplasmin and anaemia
(00:37:45) Hair mineral tests
(00:42:57) The root cause protocol
(00:55:04) Molecular hydrogen
(01:01:47) How trauma affects health
(01:14:20) Morley's thoughts on Joel Greene's work and iron in the gut
(01:23:34) Is the RDA for copper sufficient?
(01:25:38) The best copper supplements
(01:32:07) Human lactoferrin
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Transcript
Welcome to the VPLR podcast, the show
Speaker:where we bring you actionable health
Speaker:advice from leading minds.
Speaker:I'm your host Rob.
Speaker:My guest today is Morley Robbins, creator
Speaker:of the Root Course Protocol, founder of
Speaker:the Magnesium Advocacy Group, and a
Speaker:leading educator in the interplay of
Speaker:minerals like copper, iron,
Speaker:and magnesium in human health.
Speaker:Morley's work challenges conventional
Speaker:views on iron deficiency and pushes us to
Speaker:understand mineral balance as central to
Speaker:energy production, immune
Speaker:function, and chronic disease.
Speaker:Expect to learn why copper and
Speaker:ceruloplasmin are essential
Speaker:regulators of iron metabolism,
Speaker:how mineral imbalances can drive fatigue,
Speaker:oxidative stress, and dysfunctional
Speaker:hormonal health, and practical strategies
Speaker:to better understand and manage copper
Speaker:and iron balance in
Speaker:your own health journey.
Speaker:Now, on to the
Speaker:conversation with Morley Robbins.
Speaker:Good morning Morley, and
Speaker:thanks for being here today.
Speaker:This one's been a long time coming, and
Speaker:I'm glad we found time to finally dig
Speaker:into everything copper and iron today.
Speaker:Now, I was fortunate enough to have a
Speaker:chance to listen to you
Speaker:lecture in London a few months ago.
Speaker:It was an amazing experience, and I
Speaker:learned a lot especially about copper as
Speaker:it pertains to sort
Speaker:of post viral fatigues.
Speaker:Of course, I don't want to get ahead of
Speaker:myself, and I know that today's
Speaker:conversation will be aimed maybe more at
Speaker:the basics, and then hopefully we can get
Speaker:together at a later date and dig into
Speaker:sort of more specific topics.
Speaker:Anyway, before we start, would you mind
Speaker:introducing yourself to those in the
Speaker:audience who maybe aren't familiar with
Speaker:you and your body of work?
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:Well, thank you for the opportunity, and
Speaker:it's great to meet you, and look forward
Speaker:to our discussion now,
Speaker:and maybe going forward.
Speaker:I'm Morley Robbins.
Speaker:I may affectionately refer to
Speaker:myself as a pre-med retread.
Speaker:I had designs of going to medical school,
Speaker:and a very good friend of mine, Ben
Speaker:Edwards, who's a physician in Texas,
Speaker:said, "It's a blessing you
Speaker:didn't go to medical school."
Speaker:I said, "Why is that?"
Speaker:He said, "Because you
Speaker:didn't get indoctrinated."
Speaker:That's allowed me to ask different
Speaker:questions of the research, of the
Speaker:literature that's out there, and it's
Speaker:been a fascinating experience on the
Speaker:heels of 32 years of working in hospitals
Speaker:and hospital consulting firms to then
Speaker:step out of that role and become a
Speaker:self-taught mineral expert.
Speaker:I don't have the good housekeeping seal
Speaker:of approval of any particular program.
Speaker:I've just relied on the literature,
Speaker:and the good fortune of passion and
Speaker:drive, and the staying power of over
Speaker:10,000 articles now,
Speaker:I've learned a thing or two.
Speaker:I wouldn't say that I have total recall
Speaker:of 10,000 articles, but
Speaker:I have a lot of recall.
Speaker:One of my gifts as a consultant was
Speaker:pattern recognition.
Speaker:I was able to take data and extrapolate
Speaker:it, take information and massage it and
Speaker:synthesize, what is
Speaker:this really telling us?
Speaker:I've done that over the course of the
Speaker:last 16 years and have assembled a very
Speaker:unique perspective of how
Speaker:does the body really work.
Speaker:You have two largely competing paradigms.
Speaker:There's attack the guest
Speaker:and strengthen the host.
Speaker:Attack the guest is the more
Speaker:conventional, let's throw a chemistry at
Speaker:it, let's throw a drug at it, try to kill
Speaker:that pathogen or that
Speaker:toxin or whatever it might be.
Speaker:But when you look into the millennia old
Speaker:healing traditions, most of them are
Speaker:based on what can we do
Speaker:to strengthen the host.
Speaker:That's really what I think is from that
Speaker:philosophy that the root cause protocol
Speaker:flows out of let's make sure we have the
Speaker:right nutrients in our diet and in our
Speaker:supplement routine to allow the body to
Speaker:express its original intent.
Speaker:Go back to original factory settings and
Speaker:allow the body to express the energy.
Speaker:We can have a stasis.
Speaker:Yeah, to get
Speaker:homeostasis, that's exactly right.
Speaker:And so we ignore the
Speaker:enemies and we ignite the energy.
Speaker:It's a very different way of thinking
Speaker:about it and I think it's refreshing but
Speaker:it's also empowering.
Speaker:Individuals realize I can do this and
Speaker:that's really the driver from the get-go
Speaker:has been how do we democratize healing?
Speaker:How do we put the individual back in the
Speaker:driver's seat and draw on practitioners
Speaker:as a resource but not
Speaker:necessarily as the be all and end all?
Speaker:So it's been a fascinating
Speaker:journey over the last 16 years.
Speaker:Yeah, I've listened to podcasts and I've
Speaker:obviously gone through your books and I
Speaker:can attest just the way you think through
Speaker:problems and it's just a delight to see
Speaker:that how you sort of, how do I say it,
Speaker:sort of restructured the paradigm.
Speaker:I mean, we're talking about that a second
Speaker:ago off air and I think you've just
Speaker:created a whole new narrative or again
Speaker:paradigm to start thinking
Speaker:through these sorts of problems.
Speaker:And yeah,
Speaker:when you were speaking,
Speaker:the two terms just sort of came to head
Speaker:or came to top of mind or one I suppose
Speaker:and that is a sort of idea
Speaker:of terrain and germ theory.
Speaker:I was about to say, do you sort of
Speaker:subscribe to that model?
Speaker:It's a little off track and maybe not
Speaker:quite the question I was
Speaker:going to start with but
Speaker:do you feel that there is an aspect or
Speaker:element of correctness to that?
Speaker:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker:I think it's a foundational philosophical
Speaker:divide and what you've got, we're going
Speaker:back to the debates between Béchamp and
Speaker:Pasteur and for those who don't know,
Speaker:Pasteur's PhD was a correspondence course
Speaker:in pharmacology and Béchamp was the most
Speaker:decorated scientist in Europe.
Speaker:He had an MD and two PhDs, many, many
Speaker:awards and of course Béchamp was taking
Speaker:the position of the terrain theory and
Speaker:Pasteur was focusing on the particle, the
Speaker:pathogen and that's where the moneyed
Speaker:interest was on the pathogen.
Speaker:But I think the part that I think is a
Speaker:nuance of Béchamp around the terrain
Speaker:theory is he wasn't talking about,
Speaker:sometimes it's referred to as the field,
Speaker:he was talking about the energetic field.
Speaker:And I think he didn't say it that way but
Speaker:as I've studied his work and studied the
Speaker:debates, I think that's where we have
Speaker:this conflict of if you put an electron
Speaker:microscope on a pathogen and you ignore
Speaker:the energetic field that it's finding
Speaker:itself, then you don't
Speaker:understand the problem.
Speaker:And the pathogen is a reflection of
Speaker:what's the state of energy in this tissue
Speaker:and the fact that the pathogen can morph
Speaker:from bacteria to virus
Speaker:to fungus to parasites.
Speaker:It's like that's mind-blowing to think
Speaker:about but it does as the pH changes and
Speaker:it's just and what so the
Speaker:thing is what does pH stand for?
Speaker:What's potential for hydrogen?
Speaker:Well actually it's potential for oxygen
Speaker:and the really critical
Speaker:issue is when oxygen is available
Speaker:and it can be activated by copper, you
Speaker:make energy and the peak of energy
Speaker:production is at the pH of 7 because
Speaker:that's when O2 is most
Speaker:available for activation.
Speaker:But if you have,
Speaker:if the pH starts to drop or rise,
Speaker:the energy yield drops off and that's
Speaker:when the pathogens wake up.
Speaker:So I think the that whole concept is a
Speaker:critical foundation for understanding
Speaker:where is all this unrest in our body
Speaker:coming from, this lack of homeostasis,
Speaker:it's lack of energy and we're
Speaker:yeah to me it's that simple.
Speaker:Yeah and thank you for setting that up.
Speaker:That was the perfect segue into my next
Speaker:question really which is to sort of
Speaker:really sort of maybe take a deeper dive
Speaker:into why you think we are facing such a
Speaker:high prevalence of chronic
Speaker:disease in society today.
Speaker:Now I believe your core thesis is that
Speaker:disease stems from oxidative distress due
Speaker:to mitochondrial dysfunction
Speaker:caused by mineral imbalances.
Speaker:I think anyway I could be off the mark.
Speaker:Could you explain this a little more?
Speaker:We've got a pretty savvy audience so the
Speaker:details are good-ish just as long as we
Speaker:don't start talking about sort of ion
Speaker:channel polarizational anything like that
Speaker:that up until that
Speaker:point I think we're golden.
Speaker:Yeah no I think it's the catch phrase is
Speaker:mitochondrial dysfunction.
Speaker:Okay that's like saying okay we're on
Speaker:planet earth now and we want to we want
Speaker:to climb a mountain.
Speaker:Well we got to get a little more specific
Speaker:about where we're headed and the reason
Speaker:why we're on this
Speaker:planet is because of copper.
Speaker:It's not complicated.
Speaker:Prior to copper's ascension,
Speaker:prior to the great oxygen event, the
Speaker:world was dominated by iron and sulfur.
Speaker:And cyanobacteria began to engage in
Speaker:photosynthesis with this
Speaker:bright shiny object in the sky.
Speaker:Why that started I don't think anyone's
Speaker:really been able to identify the origin
Speaker:of that but when that took place oxygen
Speaker:began to be given off by those organisms.
Speaker:It went into the primordial sea and then
Speaker:when the seedbed filled up it would pop
Speaker:into the atmosphere.
Speaker:Now we exist right now with about what is
Speaker:it 21 oxygen in the air.
Speaker:It's fluctuated over the billions of
Speaker:years but it's now we're
Speaker:hovering around 21 percent.
Speaker:But when the great oxygen event took
Speaker:place allegedly 3.4 billion years ago I'm
Speaker:always amazed at the astrobiologists and
Speaker:their precision for
Speaker:identifying these dates.
Speaker:But when that happened when there was one
Speaker:tenth of one percent of oxygen in the air
Speaker:it wiped out 99.9 percent of life on the
Speaker:planet because it was all anaerobic.
Speaker:Oxygen it's a very reactive element.
Speaker:It's the second most
Speaker:reactive element after fluorine gas.
Speaker:It loves to play with electrons
Speaker:especially if those electrons
Speaker:happen to be involving iron.
Speaker:And copper's gift to the planet was the
Speaker:ability to work with iron and oxygen at
Speaker:the same time and not create
Speaker:static, not create a reaction.
Speaker:And out of that situation was born
Speaker:several critical chemicals.
Speaker:One of them was an enzyme the
Speaker:classification is called
Speaker:multi-copper oxidases, MCOs.
Speaker:And probably the I would argue is
Speaker:probably one of the most important is
Speaker:called cytochrome C oxidase and that's
Speaker:obviously what's running complex for.
Speaker:And that's where oxygen gets turned into
Speaker:two molecules of water at the pH of
Speaker:seven, critical pH of seven because
Speaker:that's the optimal peak of energy
Speaker:production to allow ADP,
Speaker:3 ADP to go over to complex five to
Speaker:become 3 magnesium ATP.
Speaker:Now the part that's a little nuanced and
Speaker:it's very important for people to
Speaker:understand is that cytochrome C oxidase
Speaker:is like the stove in your home.
Speaker:What's the stove made of?
Speaker:Iron.
Speaker:Made out of steel and cytochrome C
Speaker:oxidase has a lot of iron in it, a lot of
Speaker:iron sulfur clusters.
Speaker:Actually two where there's two iron
Speaker:sulfur clusters there's two heme groups,
Speaker:forgive me, two heme groups.
Speaker:But there's also three copper atoms and
Speaker:so think about your stove at home.
Speaker:Does the stove know what's for dinner?
Speaker:No.
Speaker:Does the stove know what
Speaker:temperature to put the oven on?
Speaker:No.
Speaker:Does the stove know
Speaker:which burner to turn on?
Speaker:No.
Speaker:And the world of convention has put a
Speaker:spotlight on the stove of the
Speaker:mitochondria and completely ignored the
Speaker:chef that runs the show.
Speaker:And in this case it's cytochrome C
Speaker:oxidase and it has a celebrated function
Speaker:of bringing in four hydrogen atoms or
Speaker:protons, four electrons and voila in one
Speaker:step creating two molecules of water.
Speaker:That I think it's the most important
Speaker:chemical reaction on the planet releases
Speaker:the ADP at that point.
Speaker:And you don't hear people talking about
Speaker:that in the world of convention.
Speaker:They love to talk about mitochondrial
Speaker:dysfunction and they don't talk about the
Speaker:55 or more solute transport carriers,
Speaker:many of which are energy dependent.
Speaker:They don't talk about cideroflexin, which
Speaker:is really important
Speaker:transport mechanism for iron.
Speaker:I'm not familiar with that cideroflexin.
Speaker:Cideroflexin.
Speaker:I just learned it last week.
Speaker:All right.
Speaker:It's brand new to me.
Speaker:I've never heard the
Speaker:term before, I must admit.
Speaker:It's going to make your toes curl when
Speaker:you find out what it does.
Speaker:What it does is it lets
Speaker:iron into the mitochondria.
Speaker:Oh wow.
Speaker:Yeah, maybe not.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And so then we've got cideroflexin coming
Speaker:in, allowing the iron in, and then we
Speaker:have what are called ABC transporters,
Speaker:ABC B8 in particular, but there's a whole
Speaker:series of ATP transporters
Speaker:that are pushing iron out.
Speaker:What people don't, I don't think people
Speaker:fully understand is that if the
Speaker:mitochondria starts to accumulate iron,
Speaker:which its tendency is to do,
Speaker:the energy production collapses because
Speaker:the oxygen is not available to be
Speaker:activated to turn into water.
Speaker:And you'll hear about hypoxia.
Speaker:You've heard that term.
Speaker:Definitely.
Speaker:There's three different forms of hypoxia.
Speaker:There's altitude.
Speaker:We're at the top of Mount Everest.
Speaker:The air is very thin.
Speaker:It's kind of hard to
Speaker:find oxygen out there.
Speaker:There's a second form called pathogenic
Speaker:hypoxia, and that's neutrophils.
Speaker:Those are the marines of the immune
Speaker:system that are using oxygen as a bullet,
Speaker:turning it into an
Speaker:oxidant to kill the pathogens.
Speaker:Very important part of our immune system.
Speaker:That function is copper
Speaker:dependent, by the way.
Speaker:That respiratory burst
Speaker:function is copper dependent.
Speaker:And then the third form of hypoxia that
Speaker:no one talks about, I've only seen it in
Speaker:one article, is functional hypoxia.
Speaker:And what it really means is because of a
Speaker:lack of bioavailable copper, and I think
Speaker:it might also involve retinol, which we
Speaker:can get into that as well,
Speaker:the oxygen isn't
Speaker:available to be activated.
Speaker:It's become an oxidant.
Speaker:It's become hydrogen peroxide, or it's
Speaker:become the hydroxyl radical.
Speaker:Or it's become superoxide
Speaker:would be the starting point.
Speaker:All of these, of course, being free
Speaker:radicals that then cause various types of
Speaker:cellular distress throughout the body.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:And we have mechanisms in our body to
Speaker:neutralize them, but
Speaker:they're all copper dependent.
Speaker:And that isn't openly discussed in the
Speaker:literature, except in
Speaker:certain schools of thought.
Speaker:Yeah, that was going to be
Speaker:my next question, actually.
Speaker:Coppers role as in support.
Speaker:I know we'll get into this, maybe we can
Speaker:catch into this rheoplasma a bit later,
Speaker:but maybe copper's direct role to support
Speaker:sort of mitochondrial
Speaker:antioxidant activity.
Speaker:I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong,
Speaker:it's involved in the production of
Speaker:mitochondrial sod or
Speaker:superoxide just to be changed.
Speaker:Is that correct?
Speaker:That's exactly right.
Speaker:So you have the beauty of copper.
Speaker:It's a multifaceted,
Speaker:many dimensional mineral
Speaker:in terms of what it does.
Speaker:But it's creating energy, right?
Speaker:And it's killing the enemies,
Speaker:one of them being, or another way to
Speaker:think of it is creating
Speaker:energy and then clearing exhaust.
Speaker:Those oxygen molecules that have become
Speaker:altered because of electron chemistry
Speaker:aren't available to be activated and
Speaker:become two molecules of water.
Speaker:And so copper's gift in terms of our life
Speaker:is the capacity to neutralize those
Speaker:oxidants through superoxide dismutase
Speaker:would be one of the most important.
Speaker:And it's clearly involved in
Speaker:mitochondrial production or
Speaker:neutralization of mitochondrial acid,
Speaker:superoxide, but also in glutathione
Speaker:peroxidase and catalase.
Speaker:I mean, the world is just a
Speaker:flurry of thought now about
Speaker:ferrooptosis.
Speaker:Everyone's talking about ferrooptosis,
Speaker:but there's a very easy way to stop it
Speaker:with ferrooxidase enzyme from ceruloplasm
Speaker:or glutathione peroxidase 4.
Speaker:And not a lot of people that that
Speaker:acknowledged impact.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Just for the audience, would you mind
Speaker:breaking down ferrooptosis?
Speaker:It is, can be quite a complex topic.
Speaker:And I know that will probably sort of
Speaker:might lead us to the
Speaker:vitamin A discussion as well.
Speaker:But yeah, would you mind
Speaker:breaking down what that term is?
Speaker:And this idea of sort of ion associated
Speaker:sort of apoptosis, I suppose, or
Speaker:pre-programmed cell death?
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:It's iron directed apoptosis.
Speaker:It is the generation of lipid peroxides,
Speaker:lipid peroxidation is, those are very
Speaker:powerful oxidants that are going to
Speaker:affect membrane integrity.
Speaker:They're going to affect proteins.
Speaker:It's going to create carbonylation would
Speaker:be the technical term.
Speaker:And it's also going to lead to the dings
Speaker:of DNA inside the nucleus.
Speaker:The relationship to the iron, again,
Speaker:we're going back to sliteroflexin.
Speaker:And if there's too much iron coming in,
Speaker:and it starts to react with the membrane,
Speaker:well, you're going to,
Speaker:again, it's a chain reaction.
Speaker:It isn't just, oh, it's
Speaker:like a pinball machine.
Speaker:And that iron, there's the steel ball
Speaker:moving all around the the machine.
Speaker:And it's got to be stopped.
Speaker:It's got to be neutralized.
Speaker:And one of the most important mechanisms
Speaker:to stop that lipid
Speaker:chain reaction is vitamin E.
Speaker:It's the chain breaking antioxidant that
Speaker:no one seems to talk about.
Speaker:And there's a lot of concerns, as you
Speaker:well know, about Puthis.
Speaker:It's called feeding Puthis.
Speaker:It's like, wait a
Speaker:minute, let's back up a step.
Speaker:You know, what are our cell membranes and
Speaker:organelle membranes made out of?
Speaker:Well, yeah, they're made out of Puthis.
Speaker:And controlled oxidation.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:And so what is the match to
Speaker:the fire of lipid peroxidation?
Speaker:It's iron.
Speaker:And that's documented in the literature,
Speaker:I think it's 2008 and 2011.
Speaker:It's just the scientists
Speaker:know this deeper level of truth.
Speaker:But it's not being brought to the
Speaker:attention of students in the classroom
Speaker:about how the body really works.
Speaker:It really isn't Occam's razor, isn't it,
Speaker:at the end of the day, the simplest
Speaker:explanation on music, right?
Speaker:One was sort of wrapped up in Puthis or
Speaker:seed oils to be a bit
Speaker:more colloquial about it.
Speaker:That we're not sort of wondering why they
Speaker:are becoming an issue.
Speaker:I mean, historically, they shouldn't be.
Speaker:I mean, it's not like throughout
Speaker:evolution, nobody has
Speaker:ever consumed seed oils.
Speaker:And up until recently, they've never
Speaker:really been a cause for concern.
Speaker:And when looking at these sorts of
Speaker:diseases that are metabolic in nature,
Speaker:and excuse me, that are metabolic in
Speaker:nature, yet all of a sudden, people are
Speaker:happy to sort of try point to them as
Speaker:being this root cause issue when
Speaker:fundamentally, they're fairly benign, you
Speaker:know, themselves, it's the oxidation of
Speaker:them that's a problem.
Speaker:And as you correctly pointed out, that's
Speaker:being driven by this sort of this mineral
Speaker:balance, this copper ion imbalance that's
Speaker:sort of leading to
Speaker:their excessive oxidation.
Speaker:I suppose, while we're on the topic of
Speaker:oxidation, it would be great to sort of
Speaker:at least have an initial sort of chat
Speaker:into the whole world of ceruloplasmin.
Speaker:I think for those in the know, I think
Speaker:people see it as potentially a copper
Speaker:transporter, I might be correct, but it
Speaker:plays just so many more roles in that.
Speaker:It's as an example, it's an antioxidant.
Speaker:Now, I know this is again, this is
Speaker:something we chatted before, or about all
Speaker:fair, but it's almost central to your
Speaker:hypothesis in a sense.
Speaker:Could you sort of, or at least briefly
Speaker:just sort of work through the
Speaker:ceruloplasmin story for the audience?
Speaker:Can't wait.
Speaker:It's a protein that was first identified
Speaker:in the 1940s, beginning of 1940, 1941.
Speaker:But it's the consistent reference is 1948
Speaker:by Holmberg and Law.
Speaker:And they had broken ground and they were
Speaker:the ones that had done
Speaker:the most research on it.
Speaker:And it's a protein
Speaker:that has 1046 amino acids.
Speaker:It's not the biggest protein in the body,
Speaker:but it's one of the biggest.
Speaker:But what makes it unique is its
Speaker:composition of copper
Speaker:inside that protein.
Speaker:And when it was first discovered, there
Speaker:were eight atoms of copper.
Speaker:And from 1948 to like 1975,
Speaker:there were eight atoms of copper.
Speaker:Then mysteriously in the 1970s, the
Speaker:literature started to shift and say,
Speaker:well, actually it's only seven copies.
Speaker:A very mysterious change in the number.
Speaker:And you say, well, they must have had
Speaker:better diagnostic technique.
Speaker:No, that's not at all.
Speaker:And so then for 30 years,
Speaker:it was seven atoms of copper.
Speaker:And now in the around 2000,
Speaker:it became six atoms of copper.
Speaker:All the literature, all the recent
Speaker:literature refers to seroloplasm having
Speaker:six atoms of copper.
Speaker:So put it in the context of your car.
Speaker:If you've ever driven a V8,
Speaker:you know how much power V8 has.
Speaker:You take two cylinders out of the V8, it
Speaker:doesn't ride the same.
Speaker:It has a completely
Speaker:different source of power.
Speaker:And it just, it neuters
Speaker:its strength as a car.
Speaker:Well, that's what's
Speaker:happening, I think, to seroloplasm.
Speaker:Some of the most
Speaker:revealing research was done by
Speaker:two different teams.
Speaker:One was a team out of Harvard,
Speaker:Scheinberg and Stern and Eke.
Speaker:This was in the 1960s.
Speaker:What's very entertaining about that
Speaker:research is here we have two preeminent
Speaker:hematologists from Harvard Medical School
Speaker:doing research at an AT&T Bell laboratory
Speaker:in upstate New York.
Speaker:Why were they studying human protein
Speaker:metabolism of
Speaker:seroloplasm in a phone laboratory?
Speaker:I just find that utterly fascinating.
Speaker:But there's a series of nine studies that
Speaker:they published that revealed a lot about
Speaker:what seroloplasm is doing.
Speaker:And then some more critically important
Speaker:research was done by Earl Frieden, who
Speaker:was the dean of metal biology for decades
Speaker:at Florida State
Speaker:University here in the US.
Speaker:And he, in the late 60s, 70s and 80s, did
Speaker:a lot of studies about what
Speaker:is the nature of this protein.
Speaker:And what began to emerge is that, in
Speaker:fact, there's 15 different
Speaker:substrates for seroloplasm.
Speaker:But this is just iron.
Speaker:They work with copper.
Speaker:It works with oxygen.
Speaker:It works with phenol
Speaker:groups, diphenol groups,
Speaker:amine groups,
Speaker:bioenergetic, biogenic amine.
Speaker:It's staggering what
Speaker:it's capable of doing.
Speaker:All of the
Speaker:catecholamines react with seroloplasm.
Speaker:And what it means is that seroloplasm has
Speaker:a unique ability to work with those
Speaker:substrates to change their structure and
Speaker:function, to make them beneficial,
Speaker:turn on things, turn off things.
Speaker:And I would argue it's one of the most
Speaker:important mechanisms of
Speaker:intelligence in our body.
Speaker:And one example of the power of this is
Speaker:that some interesting numbers,
Speaker:36% of the Earth's composition is iron.
Speaker:That's a lot of iron.
Speaker:It is a lot of iron, yeah.
Speaker:So over a third of the Earth has some
Speaker:manifestation of iron.
Speaker:And according to the latest research of
Speaker:the World Health Organization,
Speaker:to the extent that we can trust it, 27%
Speaker:of Earthlings, it's a quarter of the
Speaker:people on the planet, are anemic.
Speaker:It's a lot of people.
Speaker:That's 2 million people who can't
Speaker:metabolize the number
Speaker:one element on the planet.
Speaker:And in 1971,
Speaker:Dr.
Speaker:Frieden wrote a very
Speaker:important article about seroloplasm.
Speaker:And he was doing research to see what
Speaker:happens as the activity level of the
Speaker:ferrooxidase enzyme dropped.
Speaker:And so what we have to do is back up and
Speaker:say, so we've got a seroloplasm protein
Speaker:that can express itself in
Speaker:nine different enzyme functions.
Speaker:That's a very unique capability to have.
Speaker:The whole basis of modern pharmacology is
Speaker:one gene, one protein, one function.
Speaker:Well, seroloplasm is one gene.
Speaker:It is one protein, but
Speaker:it's many, many functions.
Speaker:Some say it might be as high as 20
Speaker:different functions.
Speaker:I'll keep it conservative.
Speaker:I'm just saying nine.
Speaker:I can identify those nineisms.
Speaker:And then we find out that the one that
Speaker:they always talk about in the literature
Speaker:is ferrooxidase enzyme.
Speaker:And what it's doing is it's oxidizing
Speaker:ferrocyne plus 2, and we're
Speaker:going to ferric iron plus 3.
Speaker:In that ferric form, it can be either
Speaker:loaded into ferritin for storage, or it
Speaker:can be loaded onto a transfer for
Speaker:transport back to the bone marrow so we
Speaker:can make new red blood cells.
Speaker:Very, very important
Speaker:because we're doing that.
Speaker:We've got to replace two and a half
Speaker:million red blood cells
Speaker:every second of every day.
Speaker:Those are big numbers.
Speaker:I have a friend who says, "Worly, there's
Speaker:only three numbers, one, two, and a lot."
Speaker:When you start talking about 2.5 million
Speaker:a second, it's just people can understand
Speaker:that, so it can't be that important.
Speaker:That's usually what people will say.
Speaker:I can't process it.
Speaker:But that's one of the most important
Speaker:aspects in our body is
Speaker:that perpetual replacement.
Speaker:And the Ceruloplasmic
Speaker:expression is something that Dr.
Speaker:Frieden really studied.
Speaker:And when it went down to 10% of ideal
Speaker:function as the ferrooxidase enzyme,
Speaker:there was still healthy
Speaker:hemoglobin production.
Speaker:When it went down to 1%, 1% of ideal, it
Speaker:was still functioning, but
Speaker:it wasn't at the right level.
Speaker:And what he asserted was that after seven
Speaker:days of zero ferrooxidase function,
Speaker:that's when anemia began
Speaker:to present in the animals.
Speaker:Anemia is lack of sufficient hemoglobin.
Speaker:That's the real
Speaker:clinical definition of anemia.
Speaker:It's not red blood cells, it's lack of
Speaker:hemoglobin in the red blood cell.
Speaker:And is that what's then potentially
Speaker:driving the iron deficient anemia?
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:And so again, it took seven days of zero
Speaker:ferrooxidase expression to then trigger
Speaker:the expression of anemia.
Speaker:And here's the catch.
Speaker:This is very important.
Speaker:Low iron in a blood cell does not match
Speaker:up with high iron
Speaker:that's stuck in the tissue.
Speaker:And that is ferrooxidase's gift to all
Speaker:life is the ability to recycle iron.
Speaker:That's what it's trying to do as we're
Speaker:replacing 2.5 million red blood cells.
Speaker:We've got to break them down, got to
Speaker:release the iron, got to get it
Speaker:transported back to the bone marrow.
Speaker:And there are a lot of steps in between,
Speaker:but this is completely lost in a world
Speaker:that is preoccupied with dietary iron as
Speaker:opposed to recycled iron.
Speaker:And one of the most important statistics
Speaker:as it relates to this whole dynamic is
Speaker:that only one milligram of iron needs to
Speaker:come through our diet.
Speaker:24 of the 25 milligrams that are needed
Speaker:every day to make that 200 billion red
Speaker:blood cells every 24 hours.
Speaker:24 of those 25 milligrams comes from the
Speaker:recycling system that is
Speaker:run and regulated by COPPA.
Speaker:And so you've probably heard the phrase,
Speaker:the simple lie versus the complex truth.
Speaker:Everyone wants the simple lie.
Speaker:It was Alex de Tocqueville who said it in
Speaker:trans but centuries before
Speaker:him it was Lao Tzu in China.
Speaker:People would always prefer the simple lie
Speaker:than the complex truth.
Speaker:It's just easier to accept.
Speaker:Well the simple lie is
Speaker:that people are anemic.
Speaker:The complex truth is I have access to
Speaker:articles that to my satisfaction prove
Speaker:that there's nine copper dependent enzyme
Speaker:functions that contribute to "anemia"
Speaker:that have nothing to do with iron.
Speaker:And it's absolutely fascinating that the
Speaker:world has been captivated by this idea of
Speaker:low iron and has very little
Speaker:understanding or awareness
Speaker:that COPPA is running the show.
Speaker:COPPA is the gem in the iron is the foot
Speaker:soldier and that's not how it's presented
Speaker:in the literature at all.
Speaker:Yeah, it's the other way around and for
Speaker:the most part people are more than happy
Speaker:to just try and treat these conditions
Speaker:ironically enough by well supplying the
Speaker:body with more iron.
Speaker:I suppose that's the
Speaker:great irony there, isn't it?
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:I mean it's just the world does not
Speaker:understand that
Speaker:copper iron interdependent
Speaker:and if I were king for a day, if I had a
Speaker:magic wand, I would require all studies
Speaker:of iron to involve copper metabolism and
Speaker:all studies of copper metabolism to
Speaker:indicate its impact on iron.
Speaker:We've got to get beyond and get people to
Speaker:realize this interdependence that these
Speaker:metals have in bringing up homeostasis
Speaker:that you were referring
Speaker:to at the very beginning.
Speaker:Yeah, this sort of again, it's a common
Speaker:theme in sort of biology as a whole.
Speaker:Everybody sort of gets stuck in a sort of
Speaker:a siloed in their own silo, don't they?
Speaker:Irrespective of where you are and you
Speaker:sort of end up missing, what's the
Speaker:expression you end up missing the woods
Speaker:for the tree, something to that extent?
Speaker:Yeah, the site of the
Speaker:forest for the trees.
Speaker:There we go.
Speaker:We had the pleasure of spending an
Speaker:evening with Douglas Cowell who was a low
Speaker:way down iron expert and when he was at
Speaker:University of Manchester, his best friend
Speaker:was Garth Cooper who was in
Speaker:the office right next to him.
Speaker:He was a world renowned
Speaker:copper expert and according to Dr.
Speaker:Cowell, they never talked shop.
Speaker:What?
Speaker:But I'll take him as word.
Speaker:They just enjoyed each other's company.
Speaker:They'd go to the pub
Speaker:and let off some steam.
Speaker:But it's like they didn't talk about how
Speaker:their two research worlds were interwoven
Speaker:in a very intimate way.
Speaker:That's the challenge we've got around the
Speaker:globe, is getting more people
Speaker:to be aware of your curiosity.
Speaker:So what are we missing?
Speaker:What's the part that we
Speaker:don't seem to understand?
Speaker:I think it's this idea that somehow,
Speaker:in my way of thinking,
Speaker:copper's running the show.
Speaker:But we're taught that it's toxic.
Speaker:And when you get into the real bowels of
Speaker:human metabolism especially,
Speaker:it's undeniably central to
Speaker:our health and physiology.
Speaker:It makes no sense any other way.
Speaker:And it's just not taught that way in any
Speaker:school of nutrition or any kind of
Speaker:doctor's school, whether you're
Speaker:allopathic or homeopathic or
Speaker:osteopathic or naturopathic.
Speaker:Copper's not part of their vocabulary.
Speaker:And as I was noting before we started the
Speaker:formal part of the conversation, I've
Speaker:seen five textbooks, not one mention of
Speaker:this protein that you're
Speaker:curious about, the ceruleoplasm.
Speaker:And what's also important for people to
Speaker:know is that it's
Speaker:subject to modification.
Speaker:It can get what's called denatrine so
Speaker:that in the presence of ascorbic acid or
Speaker:citric acid, it changes its structure and
Speaker:the copper gets released.
Speaker:In the presence of high glucose, blood
Speaker:glucose, when blood
Speaker:glucose gets above 120,
Speaker:the denature of
Speaker:ceruleoplasma, the copper's come out.
Speaker:And so everyone is taught
Speaker:to fear this unbound copper.
Speaker:The copper's concentration in the blood
Speaker:is one percent of the
Speaker:copper's in the blood.
Speaker:99% is in the tissue.
Speaker:And if the copper is rising in the blood,
Speaker:it means it's missing in the tissue.
Speaker:And it's the absolute inverse of iron
Speaker:that when iron is low in the blood, it
Speaker:means it's stuck in the tissue.
Speaker:That's just getting people to see the
Speaker:symmetry of that and how that gets
Speaker:represented in the testing.
Speaker:But we don't have access to perfect
Speaker:testing because at least here in the
Speaker:States, we're not allowed to test for the
Speaker:ferrooxidase enzyme function.
Speaker:There are only a handful of countries in
Speaker:the world that believe in allowing.
Speaker:I don't think I've ever even seen it on a
Speaker:lab request sheet, to be honest.
Speaker:I suppose speaking of testing, you're a
Speaker:proponent of a hair
Speaker:mineral analysis in that respect.
Speaker:Could you sort of briefly just walk us
Speaker:through that and then maybe we could sort
Speaker:of transition into your
Speaker:protocol specifically?
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:Been working with the hair tissue mineral
Speaker:analysis from the beginning.
Speaker:And my mentor in those early days, early
Speaker:years, was a gentleman by
Speaker:the name of Rick Malter.
Speaker:He's a clinical psychologist.
Speaker:And he had been using HGMA data for
Speaker:decades, maybe three and a half decades.
Speaker:And he was very quick to point out to me
Speaker:that there's really two questions that
Speaker:can be answered in a hair test.
Speaker:One,
Speaker:is this person under stress?
Speaker:Very important because it will reveal
Speaker:itself very quickly in the hair test.
Speaker:And secondly, can this person mobilize
Speaker:energy in the face of their stress?
Speaker:And he developed something called the
Speaker:Malter mix to normalize the results so
Speaker:that you're seeing what's the actual
Speaker:magnesium and what he was doing was
Speaker:relative to its ideal,
Speaker:actual calcium relative to its ideal.
Speaker:And so the Malter mix is a great way to
Speaker:level the data from the hair test because
Speaker:it's very easy to be overwhelmed by that
Speaker:trees versus forest dynamic.
Speaker:And I think what my thinking really began
Speaker:to change about the hair test was when I
Speaker:realized that you can't measure
Speaker:ceruloplasmin activity
Speaker:or level in a hair test.
Speaker:We can measure the mineral copper, but we
Speaker:can't get to its protein
Speaker:that really runs the show.
Speaker:And so that's when I began to move into
Speaker:the world of blood testing.
Speaker:And it's not perfect because there's so
Speaker:many restrictions on what we're allowed
Speaker:to test in the blood, but it presented a
Speaker:completely different perspective of
Speaker:copper as it relates to
Speaker:its influence in the body.
Speaker:And so the hair test, I think it's an
Speaker:absolutely vital source of broad
Speaker:information because what you're looking
Speaker:for is to what extent is this person's
Speaker:mineral expression all over the map.
Speaker:And the more it's all over the map, the
Speaker:more stress they're dealing with
Speaker:and that it's very easy to reveal, are
Speaker:they making energy through the adrenal
Speaker:ratio and the thyroid ratio, which is
Speaker:kind of fun to see that.
Speaker:And to me, that's where the rubber hits
Speaker:the road is really relates to a famous
Speaker:quote by, at least I think it's famous, a
Speaker:quote by Mark Hyman about stress.
Speaker:Stress is the body's inability to make
Speaker:energy for the mind to
Speaker:respond to its environment.
Speaker:I think it's one of the most profound
Speaker:definitions of what stress really is.
Speaker:And what we've got to be able to do is
Speaker:when you have stress in your world, I
Speaker:guarantee you, you're going to have
Speaker:oxidative stress in your body.
Speaker:So then we're into functional hypoxia.
Speaker:Suddenly the oxygen is not available to
Speaker:be turned into water.
Speaker:We can't make energy.
Speaker:And then that's when all the symptoms
Speaker:begin to surface, whether it's toxic
Speaker:symptoms, pathogenic
Speaker:symptoms, heavy metal symptoms.
Speaker:That's when everything begins to flourish
Speaker:is when we can't make the
Speaker:requisite amount of energy.
Speaker:And so when you look at a hair test and
Speaker:you see this erratic picture, which is
Speaker:very often the case,
Speaker:what you really know is
Speaker:that person's under stress.
Speaker:Can they make energy?
Speaker:Most can't.
Speaker:How can we solve that?
Speaker:That's what the root cause protocol is
Speaker:all about is how do we reignite the
Speaker:ability to make the energy so we can
Speaker:respond to the stress and not resilience
Speaker:in the face of that stress.
Speaker:Perfect.
Speaker:Molly, I could talk about
Speaker:biochemistry with you all day.
Speaker:However, I have a feeling the audience
Speaker:would like something
Speaker:maybe a little more practical.
Speaker:So I'd love it if we could sort of maybe
Speaker:dig more into what you're probably most
Speaker:well known for, which is really your root
Speaker:cause protocol, which you've developed on
Speaker:sort of the back end of the research that
Speaker:you've done for the last well, nearly two
Speaker:decades at this point.
Speaker:Could you walk us through the protocol?
Speaker:I've got a bunch of questions of my own,
Speaker:but which I'll interject, and I'll
Speaker:interject along the
Speaker:way when they come up.
Speaker:But in a nutshell, how is your approach
Speaker:to helping people overcome
Speaker:various health challenges?
Speaker:Well, working.
Speaker:You know, having come out of the
Speaker:conventional medical model,
Speaker:where there's disease everywhere.
Speaker:And I was involved in doing forecasts of
Speaker:where was where were the
Speaker:disease indexes going to go?
Speaker:And they were all hockey
Speaker:sticks waiting to take off.
Speaker:I realized that there was something
Speaker:fundamentally wrong or
Speaker:something misunderstood.
Speaker:And so that's what really pulled me into
Speaker:this whole quest of, so how are we really
Speaker:designed to work as a species
Speaker:and I started out focusing on magnesium
Speaker:because it's the first
Speaker:mineral lost to stress.
Speaker:And I was influenced by Carolyn Dean and
Speaker:Mildred Sealeag and Gene Durlock and a
Speaker:number of other famous researchers who
Speaker:were able to connect the dots that
Speaker:magnesium is the first to go, quickly
Speaker:followed by the B vitamins.
Speaker:We're under stress because they're water
Speaker:soluble and they disappear very quickly.
Speaker:And so that morphed into trying to
Speaker:understand, well, what are
Speaker:the biggest sources of stress?
Speaker:And then I find out that there was an
Speaker:article by an Italian team of researchers
Speaker:that revealed that iron stress is the
Speaker:greatest stress on planet earth.
Speaker:I went, wait a minute.
Speaker:And then I began to sync it up with the
Speaker:research about the great oxygen event.
Speaker:So I got iron and oxygen.
Speaker:And then I really began to delve into, so
Speaker:how do we stop that?
Speaker:And it's copper.
Speaker:Back to our earlier discussion.
Speaker:Copper, when it's bioavailable, when it's
Speaker:usable, when it's attached to its
Speaker:appropriate spectrum of enzymes, is able
Speaker:to neutralize the
Speaker:static and create the energy.
Speaker:And so I set out to, so how do we make
Speaker:copper bioavailable?
Speaker:We got to have ceruleal plasma.
Speaker:And I was reading an article
Speaker:by Ray Peat, who's recognized
Speaker:since passed on, unfortunately.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah, right.
Speaker:But this goes back 10 years ago.
Speaker:And it was a wonderful
Speaker:article about iron overload.
Speaker:He wrote several articles, but this one
Speaker:particularly was
Speaker:focusing on iron overload.
Speaker:And at the end, towards the end, he said,
Speaker:"To my knowledge, no one has ever
Speaker:developed a recipe to increase the
Speaker:production of ceruleal plasma."
Speaker:That was a red flag
Speaker:in front of this bull.
Speaker:I said, "Well, that's
Speaker:what I'm going to do.
Speaker:I'm going to create that recipe."
Speaker:And at the beginning, I knew that it was
Speaker:going to be important to have things to
Speaker:stop doing and start doing, in large part
Speaker:because of a conversation I had with my
Speaker:oldest son, who was an engineer.
Speaker:He said, "Dad, you got to
Speaker:tell people what to stop doing.
Speaker:You got to tell them
Speaker:what to start doing."
Speaker:I went, "Oh, okay, stops and starts."
Speaker:And so at the beginning, there were two
Speaker:stops and two starts.
Speaker:And the two key principle stops were stop
Speaker:taking iron supplements
Speaker:and stop taking vitamin D.
Speaker:You can imagine the
Speaker:heretical stance I was taking.
Speaker:But go ahead.
Speaker:Sorry, I was just going to say, what for
Speaker:the audience is the issue there with
Speaker:vitamin D specifically?
Speaker:Well, it's just what we're proposing is a
Speaker:balanced blend through catholic oil to
Speaker:get both retinol and vitamin D.
Speaker:Don't take a vitamin D
Speaker:supplement standing alone.
Speaker:In our solution.
Speaker:Yeah, it's just not an advisable.
Speaker:And there's a whole masterclass that I
Speaker:have on the downside of vitamin D.
Speaker:The people are
Speaker:welcome to purchase online.
Speaker:It's not very expensive, but it goes into
Speaker:about an hour and a half of, "Here's what
Speaker:you don't know about vitamin D."
Speaker:There's a whole other side to it.
Speaker:And so it's evolved over the, I guess,
Speaker:probably 10, 12 years.
Speaker:It's evolved into about a
Speaker:dozen stops and a dozen starts.
Speaker:And for those who are interested, just go
Speaker:to the website, rcp123.org.
Speaker:Go to the resources tab.
Speaker:And then there's a starter guide.
Speaker:It's the latest version of our getting
Speaker:people started on the root
Speaker:cause protocol that is printable.
Speaker:You can put it up on your fridge or
Speaker:wherever you want to post it
Speaker:so you can keep track of it.
Speaker:But all you have to do is donate your
Speaker:email address and we'll send you the
Speaker:record of the guide itself.
Speaker:And it's really been met
Speaker:with a lot of gratitude.
Speaker:A lot of people are very grateful for it.
Speaker:And it lays out not just the stops and
Speaker:starts, but there's a schedule.
Speaker:What should you do when?
Speaker:And it answers some
Speaker:of the basic questions.
Speaker:There are other resources.
Speaker:You can get the RCP
Speaker:handbook, which is 84 pages long.
Speaker:So the starter guide is 12 pages.
Speaker:There's an 84 page.
Speaker:These are both free.
Speaker:There's no charge.
Speaker:We're just, we're giving away the answer.
Speaker:And it just takes
Speaker:discipline to work with it.
Speaker:And it takes a willingness to step out of
Speaker:the box of convention that
Speaker:tells you do this, do that.
Speaker:When in fact, no, you don't, you don't
Speaker:want to take ascorbic acid.
Speaker:You don't want to take calcium.
Speaker:You don't want to take vitamin D alone.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:To take a kind of oil.
Speaker:And then the flip side being, it's
Speaker:important to take whole food, vitamin C.
Speaker:It's important to take magnesium and make
Speaker:sure you've got minerals in your water
Speaker:and so on and so forth.
Speaker:And what we found, it's
Speaker:absolutely fascinating.
Speaker:People who just do the stops,
Speaker:when they do those dozen or so stops,
Speaker:they find that they
Speaker:actually start to feel better.
Speaker:And then as they start to adopt, we have
Speaker:a phased introduction of the starts.
Speaker:That's when the magic starts to happen.
Speaker:And it's across the board.
Speaker:It's, you know, the whole concept of the
Speaker:root cause protocol is profiled in my
Speaker:book, Cure Your Tea.
Speaker:And again, the basis of that is there's
Speaker:20,000 symptoms that are
Speaker:profiled in the Merck manual.
Speaker:That that's the Bible of medicine is the
Speaker:Merck manual and the description of all
Speaker:those 20,000 problems.
Speaker:But what do they all begin with?
Speaker:Oxidative stress.
Speaker:The oxygen is not
Speaker:being turned into water.
Speaker:And when that happens, it sets up, it
Speaker:sets the stage for symptoms.
Speaker:And depending upon where it's happening,
Speaker:whether it's in your mind or in, or your
Speaker:brain, I should say, or your kidney or
Speaker:your elbow or wherever it happens to be.
Speaker:And it's called something different in
Speaker:the Merck manual, but
Speaker:it's all one origin.
Speaker:And it's the three ring circus of the
Speaker:world as I know it, is copper and iron
Speaker:and oxygen, not playing well together.
Speaker:And when they don't, they create this
Speaker:spectrum disorder that
Speaker:we call chronic disease.
Speaker:And so the RCP is really
Speaker:designed to empower people to
Speaker:take control of their situation.
Speaker:And we have
Speaker:recommendations about an ancestral diet.
Speaker:We don't get into the the fevered pitch
Speaker:of ketosis versus paleo versus whatever,
Speaker:you know, follow the tenets of Weston A.
Speaker:Price.
Speaker:He was a very brilliant scientist, gifted
Speaker:dentist, but he was a very, very profound
Speaker:scientist who studied what, what did the
Speaker:original communities
Speaker:eat to have perfect teeth?
Speaker:And why was he
Speaker:obsessed with perfect teeth?
Speaker:Because he knew that
Speaker:when we're a little fetus,
Speaker:we start out with 32 buds and the 32 buds
Speaker:split and become 64 buds and 32 become
Speaker:our teeth and the
Speaker:other 32 become our spine.
Speaker:And he knew that perfect teeth and
Speaker:perfect spine and perfect health.
Speaker:And so I just think it's important for
Speaker:people to realize that there is this
Speaker:legacy of recommendations out there.
Speaker:And we can get into all sorts of
Speaker:religious wars about
Speaker:nuances of the of the food system.
Speaker:The manisha.
Speaker:Yeah, it's exhausting, as you well know.
Speaker:But I think the goal is to try to
Speaker:simplify this message and simplify the
Speaker:process so that people can in fact regain
Speaker:mastery of their physiology
Speaker:as we as we are designed to do.
Speaker:I believe that we are sovereign
Speaker:individuals and we're meant to have this
Speaker:independence of action,
Speaker:independence of thought.
Speaker:And when you eat the right foods and you
Speaker:have the right supplements, it enlivens
Speaker:the innate healer within us.
Speaker:And I'm not to say that, not suggesting
Speaker:that we no longer have stress.
Speaker:We will always have stress
Speaker:as long as we're above ground.
Speaker:But what we can do is neutralize that
Speaker:stress with a level of
Speaker:proficiency and efficiency.
Speaker:And when the minerals are optimized, and
Speaker:we've got an ability to curb the stress
Speaker:that's around us, whether it would be
Speaker:environmental stress, physical stress,
Speaker:biological, I mean, there's many
Speaker:different forms, but the body has this
Speaker:capacity to heal itself under all those
Speaker:types of conditions.
Speaker:Yeah, no, it's a very adapted, sort of
Speaker:regulating itself and re-finding
Speaker:homeostasis when the
Speaker:opportunity presents itself.
Speaker:But as you've alluded to multiple times,
Speaker:the moment there are breaks in
Speaker:mitochondrial efficiency or high levels
Speaker:of oxidative stress in the body, then
Speaker:it's essentially almost, well, very
Speaker:literally putting out fires.
Speaker:And it's not in a position to really
Speaker:regain its fundamental structure.
Speaker:So essentially what you're saying is that
Speaker:it's a tad more complicated than just
Speaker:popping a couple of capsules of copper
Speaker:glycinate every day, but it's still very
Speaker:doable for the average person.
Speaker:Just a sort of a quick tangent, speaking
Speaker:of healing modalities, what are your
Speaker:thoughts on molecular hypogem?
Speaker:It's doing the rounds at the moment, and
Speaker:it does seem to have quite a lot, it does
Speaker:seem to be quite effective, both from
Speaker:supporting mitochondrial function
Speaker:directly and through its sort of actions
Speaker:as a sort of selective antioxidant.
Speaker:Do you feel that that
Speaker:potentially has a place in,
Speaker:well, either in your
Speaker:protocol or in health in general?
Speaker:That's a wonderful question.
Speaker:And I'm often asked about molecular
Speaker:hydrogen or ozone therapy or other
Speaker:add-ons, if you will.
Speaker:I tend to take a very
Speaker:conservative stance.
Speaker:Most of those modalities are designed by
Speaker:scientists or practitioners who have no
Speaker:deep knowledge of copper metabolism and
Speaker:what the endearing role
Speaker:of copper is on the planet.
Speaker:As it relates to the hydrogen,
Speaker:what's the primary source of hydrogen
Speaker:protons in our body?
Speaker:It's the mitochondria.
Speaker:Complexes 1, 3, and 4 are pumping
Speaker:hydrogen constantly, right?
Speaker:That's their job.
Speaker:Now, what most people don't know, I think
Speaker:the literature is very selective about
Speaker:what it reveals, but complex 1, 3, 4, and
Speaker:5 are all copper dependent.
Speaker:I mean, 99% of articles will say that
Speaker:it's only complex 4, but there's
Speaker:compelling research around complexes 1,
Speaker:3, and 5 that no one likes to talk about
Speaker:because it begins to spoil the show.
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:exactly.
Speaker:And so I'm well aware of in a lab setting
Speaker:that hydrogen can
Speaker:neutralize the hydroxyl radical.
Speaker:I think it's a little bit of a stretch to
Speaker:say it's going to happen in a biological
Speaker:system because we happen to put
Speaker:hydrogenated water into our body.
Speaker:My limitation is I'm not a
Speaker:chemist, not a biochemist.
Speaker:I don't pretend to be a biochemist.
Speaker:I'm trying to think
Speaker:like our ancestors did.
Speaker:How do I maintain a level of vitality
Speaker:through my diet, through my
Speaker:self-reoutine, manage my stress, both
Speaker:what I can control in the outside world
Speaker:and my inside world and
Speaker:just go about my business.
Speaker:I get nervous when people start to reach
Speaker:out for different modalities because it
Speaker:sets the stage for two things.
Speaker:One, I don't think we fully know what
Speaker:those hydrogen protons are doing.
Speaker:And the other side of it is when you
Speaker:start to adopt all these different
Speaker:approaches, basically what you're telling
Speaker:the body is, "I don't really trust you.
Speaker:I don't think you really
Speaker:know what you're doing.
Speaker:Let me give you an inducement.
Speaker:Let me enhance what you're doing."
Speaker:And it sounds silly,
Speaker:but I think the body says,
Speaker:"Well, why are you asking me to get
Speaker:involved if you think
Speaker:you know the answer?"
Speaker:And the problem we've got is that you and
Speaker:I are engaged in what I would call a very
Speaker:switched-on conversation, exchanging
Speaker:information at about
Speaker:2,000 bits per second.
Speaker:That's pretty fast.
Speaker:The part of the brain that runs our body,
Speaker:the hypothalamus, thinks a million times
Speaker:faster than you and I can talk.
Speaker:And I think it's a very bold thought to
Speaker:say, "Well, I read this article on the
Speaker:internet and I need to do this."
Speaker:I think the body knows what to do.
Speaker:It lacks the nutrients to make the energy
Speaker:to run the immune system
Speaker:to regulate homeostasis.
Speaker:And I just take a very conservative
Speaker:stance that I'd rather let the body run
Speaker:itself than me start.
Speaker:And again, there are
Speaker:recommendations in the RCP.
Speaker:But these are,
Speaker:the stops are to eliminate what never
Speaker:existed in the food system before.
Speaker:And the starts are to try to restore
Speaker:normalcy and sanity in the food system
Speaker:that our ancestors had full advantage of.
Speaker:That's very basic.
Speaker:And I think it's also,
Speaker:we could easily add 50
Speaker:other items to the RCP.
Speaker:Well, then we have a compliance issue.
Speaker:Just getting people to do 12 things.
Speaker:The basics.
Speaker:Yeah, just doing the basics.
Speaker:And so there's a trade-off.
Speaker:And so I recognize the popularity of the
Speaker:hydrogen water, but I had the good
Speaker:fortune of spending a day with a world
Speaker:renowned consultant to
Speaker:the natural food industry.
Speaker:And during the course of that day,
Speaker:his first name was Michael.
Speaker:He said morally,
Speaker:"People always ask
Speaker:me, Michael, what's new?
Speaker:What's new?"
Speaker:And he said, "I've
Speaker:learned to ask what's enduring."
Speaker:And he said, "I would strongly
Speaker:advise you to start
Speaker:focusing on what's enduring."
Speaker:And it was really out of that
Speaker:conversation that I stumbled into the
Speaker:research about the great oxygen event.
Speaker:And that completely changed my
Speaker:understanding of the problem and the
Speaker:realization of what
Speaker:copper's role is on the planet.
Speaker:And I would argue that people relying on
Speaker:hydrogen water are
Speaker:probably copper deficient
Speaker:without the benefit of testing, because
Speaker:the copper knows how to pump hydrogen.
Speaker:The mechanism of making stomach acid, the
Speaker:mechanism of recycling red blood cells,
Speaker:requires acidification.
Speaker:Well, that whole
Speaker:process is copper dependent.
Speaker:And what's it doing?
Speaker:It's pumping hydrogen into these vacuoles
Speaker:to allow change to take place.
Speaker:These hydrogen atoms
Speaker:don't come from Mars.
Speaker:They're coming from copper enzymes that
Speaker:are designed through the
Speaker:ages to support our physiology.
Speaker:That's a very concise
Speaker:answer, not one I expected.
Speaker:So thank you.
Speaker:Morley, I've got some follow ups to you.
Speaker:Well, maybe some other viewpoints I'd
Speaker:love to get your opinion on.
Speaker:But before we get to that, all those
Speaker:particular viewpoints, I suppose I'd love
Speaker:to kind of get your thoughts on trauma
Speaker:and the central nervous system and
Speaker:dysfunction there in general.
Speaker:It's something I'm starting to see more
Speaker:and more when I either work with people
Speaker:or, I suppose, myself as well, but the
Speaker:fact that people for the most part, when
Speaker:they're following a protocol, often make
Speaker:at least some liver improvement.
Speaker:But unless they actually start to deal
Speaker:with a lot of the emotional side of
Speaker:things, the past traumas they've been
Speaker:through, they never really start to heal.
Speaker:Could you weigh in here?
Speaker:Do you have any thoughts on any
Speaker:techniques that you feel are effective at
Speaker:helping people to overcome trauma,
Speaker:assuming you think it's
Speaker:an issue to begin with?
Speaker:Oh, it's very real.
Speaker:And again, I go back to
Speaker:my mentor, Rick Malter.
Speaker:He wanted to make sure that I understood
Speaker:that the hair test was a window into the
Speaker:person's stress profile.
Speaker:And very, very important.
Speaker:We're all under stress.
Speaker:You and I are both under stress.
Speaker:We're having a lovely conversation, but
Speaker:everyone we know is under stress.
Speaker:Everyone we don't know is under stress
Speaker:because that's the human condition.
Speaker:And when I started this work many years
Speaker:ago, I was very Newtonian.
Speaker:I actually have a, my grandmother's
Speaker:brother's name was Newton Matthews.
Speaker:Our ancestry is back in England.
Speaker:And family legend has it that we're
Speaker:related to Sir Isaac Newton, although he
Speaker:didn't have any children.
Speaker:So it's one of his collab with brother or
Speaker:sister or something.
Speaker:Somewhere we're
Speaker:related to Sir Isaac Newton.
Speaker:But I was very Newtonian, in my view.
Speaker:There's some physical event missing.
Speaker:It's a nutrient.
Speaker:It's a vitamin.
Speaker:Something is not there.
Speaker:Over the course of 16
Speaker:years, I've become very quantum,
Speaker:realizing that at the very heart of all
Speaker:this physical imbalance is emotional
Speaker:unrest, which is very energetically
Speaker:driven, as you well know.
Speaker:And I think it's very, very
Speaker:important to address that.
Speaker:And so for years,
Speaker:we've been talking about
Speaker:the importance of dumping fear, because
Speaker:that's the granddaddy emotion of all, is
Speaker:that when you have a chronic condition
Speaker:that doesn't resolve, doesn't respond to
Speaker:the recommended path, you
Speaker:begin to doubt yourself.
Speaker:And you begin to think, well, there must
Speaker:be something wrong with my body, or I'm
Speaker:not doing it right, or I'm being punished
Speaker:by God, or something to those effects.
Speaker:And so that conjures up fear.
Speaker:And we spell it differently
Speaker:in the RCP, F E hyphen, A R.
Speaker:And that way you see the symbol for iron.
Speaker:And when you're under stress,
Speaker:you become a magnet for iron.
Speaker:Now we've been saying this for years, but
Speaker:it's only been in the last month that I
Speaker:have definitive
Speaker:physiological proof that it happens.
Speaker:And there's an enzyme in our body
Speaker:that you may have heard
Speaker:of called furin, F U R I N.
Speaker:And it's what's called
Speaker:a protein convertase.
Speaker:It's a very ancient mechanism.
Speaker:It's not as old as ceruleoplasma, though.
Speaker:It's not as old as the PAM enzyme, which
Speaker:is a very powerful enzyme in
Speaker:our body for making change.
Speaker:But furin has a unique ability to
Speaker:activate the iron
Speaker:hormone called hepcidin.
Speaker:And now hepcidin is
Speaker:what I call, was not me.
Speaker:It's known as a negative
Speaker:regulator in iron metabolism.
Speaker:And ferrooxidase in the ceruleoplasmic
Speaker:enzyme, ceruleoplasmic proteins, excuse
Speaker:me, would be known as
Speaker:a positive regulator.
Speaker:Well, looking back on our childhood, our
Speaker:parents were the positive
Speaker:regulators in our upbringing.
Speaker:A negative regulator
Speaker:would be a SWAT team.
Speaker:And what the world of convention wants us
Speaker:to believe is that SWAT teams are running
Speaker:iron metabolism and not our parents,
Speaker:which makes no sense at all.
Speaker:But the important thing to understand is
Speaker:that when hepcidin starts to flex its
Speaker:muscles, in response to furin enzyme that
Speaker:is triggered by stress, and the form of
Speaker:stress that triggers it the most is
Speaker:social defeat stress,
Speaker:otherwise known as PTSD.
Speaker:Go back five years ago.
Speaker:The world was engaged in PTSD.
Speaker:Just a bit.
Speaker:Just a bit.
Speaker:And so furin was off the chart.
Speaker:Hepcidin off the chart.
Speaker:Iron regulation was completely gone.
Speaker:And so I renamed COVID.
Speaker:COV stands for Coppers Vanished.
Speaker:ID stands for Irons Disregulated.
Speaker:And what your listeners need to make sure
Speaker:they understand is that when copper is
Speaker:down, iron takes off inside the body.
Speaker:And so
Speaker:the mind and our psyche will convince us
Speaker:that we're under stress, which is only
Speaker:going to feed the
Speaker:problem of iron regulation.
Speaker:And so that's why dealing with the
Speaker:emotional side of the equation is so
Speaker:important, which most
Speaker:people want to ignore.
Speaker:They want to stay away from their
Speaker:psychological or emotional trauma.
Speaker:And I get that.
Speaker:We've all had some very severe trauma
Speaker:that we want to pretend didn't happen.
Speaker:But when you are able to engage in
Speaker:emotional release techniques, like motion
Speaker:code or body code,
Speaker:integrative processing technique or EFT,
Speaker:it's tremendously liberating because it
Speaker:releases the fear that
Speaker:you've done something wrong.
Speaker:And it then says, as long as you're in a
Speaker:state of fear, you're
Speaker:in a sympathetic state.
Speaker:Well, guess what doesn't happen in a
Speaker:sympathetic nervous system?
Speaker:Healing.
Speaker:You can't heal and run from
Speaker:the bear at the same time.
Speaker:So you have to be in a
Speaker:parasympathetic state.
Speaker:And so that's the dilemma is we're living
Speaker:in a society where most people 24 seven
Speaker:are in sympathetic overdrive.
Speaker:And lurking in the background, this is
Speaker:enzyme that no one talks about.
Speaker:Furen.
Speaker:It's a very sophisticated audience who
Speaker:would know what that is.
Speaker:And then influencing
Speaker:hepsidin, very few people know about.
Speaker:But here's the most important part is
Speaker:when hepsidin is elevated and activated.
Speaker:Furetin is low because they
Speaker:ride on a sea salt together.
Speaker:And so who taught me that?
Speaker:Douglas Kell.
Speaker:I was about to say because Furetin is an
Speaker:acute phase reaction, isn't it?
Speaker:So that would then make sense as to why
Speaker:it's an acute phase reactant, obviously.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:Beautifully said.
Speaker:And so what's the one consistent mistake
Speaker:being made worldwide about Furetin?
Speaker:That low Furetin means
Speaker:you're not storing enough iron.
Speaker:You need more iron or an infusion.
Speaker:Why don't call them infusions anymore?
Speaker:They're invasions.
Speaker:And it's a very serious problem on the
Speaker:planet that because people don't know
Speaker:that there's nine copper dependent
Speaker:enzymes to regulate the production and
Speaker:the recycling of iron in the blood.
Speaker:And all we do is
Speaker:default to you need more iron.
Speaker:No consideration given to these nine
Speaker:different expressions
Speaker:of miles per gallon.
Speaker:Because you can put, you know, if you're
Speaker:having trouble with your mileage,
Speaker:you can fill the car up with gas.
Speaker:And it's not going to
Speaker:get better mileage, is it?
Speaker:You've got to change
Speaker:tire pressure, timing.
Speaker:You've got to change a lot of factors in
Speaker:the engine and in the car's performance
Speaker:to get better mileage.
Speaker:But throwing more gas in the
Speaker:car is not going to solve it.
Speaker:And that's the mentality of most
Speaker:practitioners, whether they're doctors or
Speaker:nutritionists or whoever, they have been
Speaker:taught singularly, you need more iron.
Speaker:It's like, really?
Speaker:That is, to me, that's the foundation of
Speaker:where the breakdown is in healing today,
Speaker:is believing that dynamic that only iron
Speaker:will solve a low
Speaker:representation of iron in a blood test.
Speaker:When in fact, I did this just the other
Speaker:day, I was with a buddy of
Speaker:mine who's very good at AI.
Speaker:And I said, Steve,
Speaker:what are the top 10 causes of anemia that
Speaker:have nothing to do with iron?
Speaker:And what came back was B12 deficiency, B9
Speaker:deficiency, B6 deficiency, hemolytic
Speaker:anemia, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker:And it goes through the
Speaker:whole beta thalassemia.
Speaker:But there were two
Speaker:things that were missing.
Speaker:I said, okay,
Speaker:what are the top 12 causes of anemia that
Speaker:have nothing to do with iron?
Speaker:Number 11, cupboard deficiency.
Speaker:Number 12, retinal deficiency.
Speaker:And to me, that was very representative
Speaker:of the thought process of convention.
Speaker:I'll give you 10 ones that you know
Speaker:about, but only under duress will I give
Speaker:you the two most important.
Speaker:Yeah, no, I'm surprised to get those.
Speaker:I was expecting another one.
Speaker:So I was expecting you to carry on to at
Speaker:least 20 to be honest.
Speaker:So I was delighted that the AI gods let
Speaker:the cat out of the bag.
Speaker:But the important thing is this concept
Speaker:of stress, of emotional stress, is
Speaker:central to our health and well being.
Speaker:And everyone's under stress.
Speaker:And again, to reinforce a point that I
Speaker:made earlier, if you have stress in your
Speaker:world, and we all do, that means you have
Speaker:oxidative stress in your body.
Speaker:And if you have this perception that the
Speaker:stress is unresolved or unresolvable,
Speaker:then it becomes PTSD.
Speaker:And then you just put gasoline on furin,
Speaker:then you just totally change
Speaker:the hepsidin ferritin dynamic.
Speaker:And then the tragedy is the people who
Speaker:have the low ferritin get iron
Speaker:supplements, get some kind
Speaker:of enhanced level of iron.
Speaker:And what does that do?
Speaker:It only increases the
Speaker:physiological stress in the body.
Speaker:Because when iron is too high, it has a
Speaker:wet blanket effect on copper metabolism.
Speaker:So then we've totally changed the
Speaker:physiology of the body, which is only
Speaker:going to intensify the
Speaker:perception of stress in the body.
Speaker:I think it's, to me, it's the hidden
Speaker:factor for why so many people are out of
Speaker:balance and have chronic fatigue and just
Speaker:don't have the vitality that they want.
Speaker:It's this confusion in the healing
Speaker:circles about what's really behind low
Speaker:iron in the blood, and not any
Speaker:consideration to it stuck in the tissue
Speaker:and not realizing the copper is the
Speaker:shuttlecock, if you will,
Speaker:between the two domains.
Speaker:Definitely.
Speaker:So take a chirp call and
Speaker:let it be called copper.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Molly, I'd like to maybe introduce, thank
Speaker:you for that, by the way, I'd like to
Speaker:introduce a slightly different
Speaker:perspective if you're open to it.
Speaker:Now, I'm a big fan of Joel Green.
Speaker:I don't know if you're
Speaker:familiar with his work and who he is.
Speaker:He has a very gut-centric approach to
Speaker:health, and health in general.
Speaker:And he also has a fairly, I suppose,
Speaker:multifaceted approach to how one might
Speaker:deal with iron overload, which I'd love
Speaker:to get your take on.
Speaker:Of course, I'm not trying to
Speaker:pit anyone against each other.
Speaker:It's just really to, I'm just interested
Speaker:in hearing people's perspectives, I
Speaker:suppose, on different protocols and ways
Speaker:of approaching something.
Speaker:Anyway, he first posits that, excuse me,
Speaker:he first posits that increasing various
Speaker:gut bacteria, like
Speaker:bifidobacteria, for example,
Speaker:with various iron-binding cetaphols,
Speaker:which I suppose for the audience can
Speaker:maybe best describe as well.
Speaker:I suppose literally bacteria-produced
Speaker:magnets can help trap iron and I suppose
Speaker:suppressor at the level of the gut and
Speaker:therefore reduce systemic overload.
Speaker:Do you think there's any
Speaker:value to that statement at all?
Speaker:Is there any way?
Speaker:Value to that statement.
Speaker:Would you agree with that?
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Iron metabolism is a two-step process.
Speaker:We've got to get iron into the enterocyte
Speaker:and then it comes in a plus two format.
Speaker:But then it's got to go into a plus three
Speaker:format to either be loaded into ferritin
Speaker:or be exported onto transferrin.
Speaker:And the second step of absorption is
Speaker:transferrin accepting the iron so it can
Speaker:go into the bloodstream and get back to
Speaker:the bone marrow to
Speaker:become new red blood cells.
Speaker:And so when that doesn't happen
Speaker:efficiently and effectively, there will
Speaker:be a buildup of iron in the
Speaker:enterocyte, the enterocytes.
Speaker:And so I think that all of the
Speaker:gut-related distress that's out there,
Speaker:whether we're talking about colitis or
Speaker:Crohn's or just IBS or whatever the
Speaker:mechanism might be, I think it's all
Speaker:iron-related due to a lack of copper.
Speaker:And in fact, in the
Speaker:world of veterinary medicine,
Speaker:there's a condition called Jonas disease,
Speaker:J-O-H-N-S-E-S, Jonas disease.
Speaker:And it's identical to Crohn's disease.
Speaker:The conditions are absolutely identical.
Speaker:Do you know how they cure Jonas disease
Speaker:in the animal world?
Speaker:Copper.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But in the human world, the doctors wring
Speaker:their hands saying we don't have to
Speaker:understand this Crohn's thing.
Speaker:And it's just, to me, it's unfortunate
Speaker:that people don't
Speaker:understand how iron is absorbed,
Speaker:two steps, how copper is essential for
Speaker:the mechanism to maintain that balance.
Speaker:And so the other side of it, though, in
Speaker:terms of gut dysbiosis is I've worked
Speaker:with hundreds of people who have gut
Speaker:issues, as you can imagine,
Speaker:what do they all have in common?
Speaker:There's an emotional
Speaker:issue they can't stomach.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And that's sort of going to affect that
Speaker:migrating motor
Speaker:complex for the most part.
Speaker:I assume there's a
Speaker:copper link there as well.
Speaker:Well, again, we're back to when you're in
Speaker:a sympathetic state, the two hormones
Speaker:that are going to really rise are
Speaker:adrenaline and cortisol.
Speaker:Yeah, fair enough.
Speaker:Adrenaline has known
Speaker:properties to increase hepsidin.
Speaker:So there must be an adrenaline, there's
Speaker:an adrenaline-furyin connection, right?
Speaker:So hepsidin is going up.
Speaker:We know what that's going to do.
Speaker:And what does cortisol do?
Speaker:Cortisol is very important hormone.
Speaker:It serves many different functions.
Speaker:But one of its least known functions is
Speaker:the ability to increase the
Speaker:production of metallothionine.
Speaker:So in a state of stress, when cortisol
Speaker:gets released, there can be a four to
Speaker:five-fold increase in
Speaker:metallothionine production.
Speaker:And why is that a problem?
Speaker:Because metallothionine binds up copper a
Speaker:thousand times stronger
Speaker:than it binds up zinc.
Speaker:So then we've just changed the energy and
Speaker:antioxidant dynamics of the body.
Speaker:And so if someone has chronic stress,
Speaker:what's essentially what's happening is
Speaker:the organism, our organism is saying, you
Speaker:can't seem to handle the stress.
Speaker:I'm going to power you down.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Hence the, I suppose that sort of
Speaker:something I go on about every podcast
Speaker:just about so I'm sure the audience is
Speaker:about, it was really
Speaker:kill me at this point.
Speaker:But that, that sounds
Speaker:like, very much like Dr.
Speaker:Robert Navier's Saldane response.
Speaker:I don't know if you...
Speaker:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And the other part that I think is
Speaker:important for people to realize is
Speaker:there's a lot of belief, and what's the
Speaker:three letter word in belief lie.
Speaker:There's a lot of belief that we need to
Speaker:manage our zinc-copper ratio.
Speaker:No, no you don't.
Speaker:You need to get zinc in your diet.
Speaker:It's a very important mineral.
Speaker:But I think we are facing a severe
Speaker:shortage of copper in the food system
Speaker:because it's not in the soil because of
Speaker:modern agricultural practices.
Speaker:But what people need to understand is
Speaker:that zinc is a perfect
Speaker:activator for metallothione.
Speaker:So when you're gobbling down 45, 50
Speaker:milligrams of zinc, you've effectively
Speaker:taken copper offline.
Speaker:And the part that people may not know is
Speaker:that zinc has a known ability to block
Speaker:copper uptake at CTR1,
Speaker:copper transporter 1.
Speaker:It has a known ability to kill the
Speaker:cytochrome C oxidase function.
Speaker:And it has a known ability by Dr.
Speaker:Deuce down in Australia in 2010 to kill
Speaker:the ferrooxidase enzyme function,
Speaker:especially in the brain.
Speaker:And so there's a lot of who struck John
Speaker:about, "Oh, you got to be
Speaker:careful of your zinc levels."
Speaker:No.
Speaker:The person who raised that issue was a
Speaker:gentleman by the name of
Speaker:Carl Pfeiffer in the 1960s.
Speaker:When the heels of world-renowned
Speaker:scientists like Otto Wirberg, Hans Krebs,
Speaker:LVM, Conrad LVM, some very noted
Speaker:scientists studying
Speaker:copper and iron for 30 years.
Speaker:They didn't study zinc.
Speaker:Zinc wasn't even on the radar screen.
Speaker:And in the same way that I would argue
Speaker:that Louis Pasteur was guided in his
Speaker:focus, I think that Carl Pfeiffer was
Speaker:guided in his focus.
Speaker:And he wrote the first article in the
Speaker:1960s about the zinc-copper ratio.
Speaker:Well, what's important to know is the
Speaker:history of these scientists.
Speaker:And it's in Wikipedia.
Speaker:You can look it up.
Speaker:But he was a principal in the MK Ultra
Speaker:Mine program with the
Speaker:CIA here in the States.
Speaker:Well, when I learn about a fact like
Speaker:that, that invalidates their research.
Speaker:And so I just, I question the veracity of
Speaker:this zinc-copper ratio that runs a lot of
Speaker:thinking in functional medical circles.
Speaker:They get very preoccupied with it.
Speaker:And I don't think they understand the energetics of copper or
Speaker:the de-energetics of zinc.
Speaker:There's nothing about
Speaker:zinc that creates energy.
Speaker:It doesn't make you have more vitality.
Speaker:It's my way of thinking.
Speaker:Zinc is a structural mineral.
Speaker:Copper is a catalytic mineral.
Speaker:And we need both.
Speaker:But when you've got to make change, when
Speaker:you've got to make energy, when you've
Speaker:got to neutralize the exhaust, you better
Speaker:have bioavailable copper.
Speaker:Bioavailable copper
Speaker:at your beck and call.
Speaker:Do you think the copper IDA is even close
Speaker:to being sufficient?
Speaker:Excuse me.
Speaker:Do you think the copper IDA is even close
Speaker:to being sufficient?
Speaker:So in the 1930s, the average person, this
Speaker:is here in the States, but actually there
Speaker:were studies done in China and in the UK.
Speaker:Back in the 30s, the average diet would
Speaker:deliver four to six
Speaker:milligrams of copper a day.
Speaker:And I was stuck on one to two at best.
Speaker:And then by the 1960s, it had dropped to
Speaker:two to five milligrams per day.
Speaker:And now worldwide, they seem to be
Speaker:hovering around nine-tenths of one
Speaker:milligram being acceptable.
Speaker:And then Leslie Clavey in 2011 did a
Speaker:study of the average American's diet and
Speaker:how much copper were
Speaker:they actually getting.
Speaker:And if I'm remembering it correctly, 80%
Speaker:of people in the States were not getting
Speaker:nine-tenths of one
Speaker:milligram of copper a day.
Speaker:And he just has a very simple solution,
Speaker:get more copper in your diet
Speaker:and in your supplement routine.
Speaker:And that's a very unpopular, almost
Speaker:heretical stance because
Speaker:copper is toxic, don't you know?
Speaker:Yeah, you're going to end up with
Speaker:Wilson's disease by tomorrow morning if
Speaker:you ever do it by half milligram.
Speaker:Exactly, right.
Speaker:No, I think there's a lot of hysteria
Speaker:around copper for all the wrong, well, I
Speaker:will say for all the wrong reasons.
Speaker:But the delicacy of copper is the
Speaker:research is out there, but you really
Speaker:have to work for it.
Speaker:And it takes time and discipline, and it
Speaker:takes a willingness to stand up to
Speaker:convention to question,
Speaker:could there be more to the story?
Speaker:And that's really what we, that's the
Speaker:position we take within the RCP is, yes,
Speaker:there is more to the story.
Speaker:Let's talk about it.
Speaker:Yeah, do you have a preferred sort of
Speaker:supplement form of copper?
Speaker:I mean, I know there is one, I believe
Speaker:it's by a company called Global Healing,
Speaker:and they produce a copper,
Speaker:it's a copper's
Speaker:nicotinic acid, I believe.
Speaker:And I have a feeling that you're a fan of
Speaker:copper supplements in the sort of
Speaker:alongside other whole food forms of
Speaker:various vitamins and minerals, such as A.
Speaker:What are your thoughts on sort of
Speaker:stand-alone copper salts
Speaker:versus copper in, yeah.
Speaker:When I started this work, I was really
Speaker:focused on more on
Speaker:minerals in general and magnesium.
Speaker:What really woke me up was COVID, that we
Speaker:have a problem, that there's a, I think
Speaker:there's a definite shortage
Speaker:of copper in the food system.
Speaker:There's a lot of opinions about it, as
Speaker:you can well imagine.
Speaker:But I was inspired to help a supplement
Speaker:company based here in the US, it's called
Speaker:Formula IQ, to make a copper
Speaker:supplement called RecuPyrate,
Speaker:that's my unending wit, RecuPyrate,
Speaker:and it delivers two milligrams of copper
Speaker:bisclicinate, along with spirulina and
Speaker:desiccated beef liver and
Speaker:some boron and turmeric.
Speaker:And it actually comes
Speaker:with or without the boron.
Speaker:I fought the need to do that mightily,
Speaker:and I was willing to run the risk of
Speaker:being called a supplement
Speaker:whore, because I somehow named it.
Speaker:I had no influence over its design per
Speaker:se, although the the formula was very
Speaker:quick to get my, at least my opinion,
Speaker:because I'm not a chemist.
Speaker:But I wanted a solution to the copper
Speaker:problem that I think was definitely
Speaker:aggravated by the time
Speaker:period 2020 through 2023.
Speaker:There was a decided attack, in my
Speaker:opinion, on copper status, other minerals
Speaker:in general, but I
Speaker:think copper in particular.
Speaker:And so, at the risk of selling like Al
Speaker:Gore, who invented the internet, right?
Speaker:Yeah, I think I
Speaker:invented the demand for copper.
Speaker:And I think I made it fashionable to at
Speaker:least talk about it.
Speaker:Right now, there's probably 50 different
Speaker:products out there,
Speaker:which I think is great.
Speaker:I think, you know, let's raise the tide,
Speaker:because it's going to help all boats.
Speaker:I think what's really needed, Rob, is a
Speaker:definitive study to say, is there a
Speaker:pecking order to all
Speaker:these different approaches?
Speaker:I've seen articles that are very critical
Speaker:of the salts, the copper salts.
Speaker:I've seen articles that talk about the
Speaker:value of copper infusions.
Speaker:I mean, the dilemma is,
Speaker:what's really missing,
Speaker:if I had another magic wand,
Speaker:I would institutionalize the production
Speaker:of ceruleoplasma and allow that to be
Speaker:something that can be infused in people.
Speaker:You were a component of ceruleoplasma.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:Because it exists.
Speaker:It costs about $200 a
Speaker:vial, a one ounce vial.
Speaker:But you have to be a research scientist
Speaker:to get access to it.
Speaker:And the thing is, back in the 1950s, they
Speaker:were curing schizophrenia
Speaker:with one shot of ceruleoplasma.
Speaker:Oh, I was not even
Speaker:close to aware of that.
Speaker:That's fascinating.
Speaker:I'll look that up.
Speaker:And so that's work that was done at
Speaker:Tulane University in 1959.
Speaker:Dr.
Speaker:Jensen and two colleagues from Harvard
Speaker:Medical School were involved in that.
Speaker:And they were studying 34
Speaker:patients with schizophrenia.
Speaker:And there was a marked improvement in 30
Speaker:of the 34 with the shot of ceruleoplasma.
Speaker:Well, what does that really tell us?
Speaker:Well, the origin of schizophrenia is the
Speaker:resting of adrenaline.
Speaker:Because anyone who has schizophrenia is
Speaker:in a state of fear, heightened fear.
Speaker:And what's the out what's the byproduct
Speaker:of fear and adrenaline?
Speaker:It's called adrenochrome.
Speaker:It's a very powerful chemical that alters
Speaker:the thinking in the individual's brain.
Speaker:And why do I know so much about it?
Speaker:Because my dad had schizophrenia.
Speaker:And what was the treatment of choice in
Speaker:Baltimore, Maryland in 1958, when he was
Speaker:because when he actually ran away from
Speaker:home, never to come back, was they were
Speaker:using electric shock therapy,
Speaker:not ceruleoplasma.
Speaker:And the reason why he left home was if
Speaker:you've ever seen the movie Cuckoo's Nest,
Speaker:you know how unbecoming
Speaker:electric shock therapy is.
Speaker:And he didn't want any part of that
Speaker:because he had it done once.
Speaker:So it's just, that's
Speaker:the wound that I carry.
Speaker:And I have the pleasure
Speaker:of knowing how to solve it.
Speaker:But I don't have the pleasure of
Speaker:administering it,
Speaker:because it's under lockdown.
Speaker:It's under clinical lockdown.
Speaker:And it's only available for research
Speaker:scientists under very strict conditions.
Speaker:But I can point you in the direction of a
Speaker:dozen studies to prove that ceruleoplasma
Speaker:would solve all the problems.
Speaker:Well, I mean, hopefully through sort of
Speaker:talking about through on podcasts like
Speaker:this, we can at least raise awareness and
Speaker:create the education around it.
Speaker:I found the study, by the way, just while
Speaker:you were talking, and I'll make sure to
Speaker:link to it in the show notes so that
Speaker:people at least do have access to it.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:It's
Speaker:a very disruptive article.
Speaker:Just a bit.
Speaker:I will read it in
Speaker:depth after our podcast.
Speaker:Molly, the last thing I suppose I wanted
Speaker:to talk to you about in earnest today,
Speaker:and this is again something Joel Green
Speaker:brought up, was this concept of
Speaker:lactoferrin,
Speaker:specifically human lactoferrin.
Speaker:Now, I suppose Joel talks about this as
Speaker:being a master regulator of iron balance
Speaker:and a two-way buffer system, maybe rather
Speaker:than just a one removal tool.
Speaker:And the way I see it, and you're welcome,
Speaker:and correct me if I'm
Speaker:wrong, which I probably am, but
Speaker:it binds to iron reportedly anyway, up to
Speaker:300 times more than trozferrin, allowing
Speaker:it to obviously then sequester more iron.
Speaker:It then reduces free sort of red
Speaker:oxactive, I suppose, iron
Speaker:to limit oxidative stress.
Speaker:And I suppose as a result of that
Speaker:microbial growth by way of limiting
Speaker:substrate for infections like Candida,
Speaker:which we didn't touch on today, but
Speaker:that's fascinating in and of itself.
Speaker:It also seems to release bound iron in
Speaker:the body when it needs to, yet it's then
Speaker:able to bind up a surplus.
Speaker:And then finally, it seems to sort of
Speaker:support immune system
Speaker:function by modulating.
Speaker:And let me see if I can get this right,
Speaker:macrophage function, which I assume could
Speaker:help regulate iron
Speaker:recycling by way of ferroportin.
Speaker:Is that correct?
Speaker:That's right.
Speaker:So I think I'm piecing this together, at
Speaker:least in some way, shape or form.
Speaker:But do you think lactoferrin is an
Speaker:interesting molecule in this regard?
Speaker:And I know we're going back slightly to
Speaker:the argument, well, not the argument, the
Speaker:discussion around molecular hydrogen
Speaker:adding sort of more pieces
Speaker:to this particular puzzle.
Speaker:What do you think about
Speaker:lactoferrin in general?
Speaker:And maybe with these new human specific
Speaker:lactoferrins coming onto the market that
Speaker:potentially have less of an immunological
Speaker:reaction than say
Speaker:something that's bovine in nature.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Do you think that has a part to play in
Speaker:helping to regulate iron?
Speaker:No, I think it's a
Speaker:primal molecule to do that.
Speaker:What's one of the highest expressions of
Speaker:lactoferrin on the planet?
Speaker:In unprocessed cow's milk.
Speaker:Royal dairy.
Speaker:And now we're back to
Speaker:beychamp and pasture.
Speaker:Indeed.
Speaker:When you pasteurize milk,
Speaker:what happens to the enzymes in that milk?
Speaker:They disappear.
Speaker:They disappear.
Speaker:There's 50 of them.
Speaker:There's 50 of them that disappear.
Speaker:The two most important,
Speaker:ceruloplasmin and lactoferrin.
Speaker:Oh, wow.
Speaker:I did not.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I've learned some things today.
Speaker:So if I know that, do
Speaker:you think they know that?
Speaker:Of course they know that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:We don't have, we don't
Speaker:just pasteurize milk now.
Speaker:We all do pasteurize.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I still find it quite funny that people,
Speaker:look, I think raw milk definitely is this
Speaker:place, but what I find funny is that
Speaker:people will buy raw milk and they put it
Speaker:straight into their coffee.
Speaker:And yeah, your raw
Speaker:milk isn't so raw anymore.
Speaker:It's just milk.
Speaker:But that's a good, that's a very
Speaker:insightful observation.
Speaker:But the thing is,
Speaker:how much, how much
Speaker:iron is in breast milk?
Speaker:None, I assume.
Speaker:None.
Speaker:That's exactly right.
Speaker:Do you think there's a reason for that?
Speaker:Well, there is.
Speaker:Because the baby, the infant human
Speaker:doesn't have an immune system until
Speaker:they're two years old.
Speaker:What is their immune system?
Speaker:Oh, yeah.
Speaker:It's copper driven.
Speaker:It's the liver, but it's copper driven.
Speaker:And during the height of insanity of
Speaker:COVID, I found 52 articles that
Speaker:documented that copper was in
Speaker:charge of the immune system.
Speaker:COV, copper's vanished,
Speaker:I, B, iron's dysregulated.
Speaker:And so
Speaker:the infant, and what's the level of
Speaker:vitamin D in mother's milk?
Speaker:Actually, I don't know, a fan.
Speaker:Zero.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Mother's milk is retinal.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:No, I do know that.
Speaker:All right.
Speaker:That tracks, that makes sense.
Speaker:It's starting to come together now.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And so what's one of the most important
Speaker:mechanisms to make copper bioavailable?
Speaker:You got to have retinal.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:If you don't have retinal activate the
Speaker:copper pumps, nothing happens.
Speaker:And so we live in a world now where
Speaker:people are afraid of, I'd like
Speaker:to call it unprocessed dairy.
Speaker:Raw sounds so crass, but it's raw dairy
Speaker:is where the action is.
Speaker:The real insult to milk
Speaker:was the homogenization.
Speaker:It was the breaking up of the fat.
Speaker:That's where the problems really started.
Speaker:But lactoferrin, very, very important.
Speaker:And I think one of the better articles
Speaker:that was written during COVID was by
Speaker:Douglas Kell, an etheric,
Speaker:blanking on her last name.
Speaker:In any event, Douglas Kell, I think it
Speaker:was 2021, talking about lactoferrin and
Speaker:the whole dynamic of the
Speaker:viral activity during COVID.
Speaker:I don't have the title memorized, but it
Speaker:would be a wonderful article for people
Speaker:to familiarize themselves with because it
Speaker:really gets into the weeds of why
Speaker:lactoferrin is so important and how it
Speaker:interacts with ceruleplasmin.
Speaker:And it's like, it's really, really
Speaker:important, especially in those molecules
Speaker:that we're talking about with
Speaker:macrophages, which are intensely
Speaker:important for our health and well-being.
Speaker:And they are,
Speaker:you made the comment about
Speaker:ferroportin, the iron doorway.
Speaker:You've got to be able to, the macrophages
Speaker:is going to engulf the problem and then
Speaker:digest the problem, but it's
Speaker:got to get rid of the iron.
Speaker:It's got to get out of
Speaker:the, of the macrophage.
Speaker:And that's through a doorway called
Speaker:ferroportin, which requires the
Speaker:ferrooxidase enzyme function.
Speaker:And that's not openly taught in
Speaker:practitioner school.
Speaker:There's no awareness of this need to have
Speaker:iron recycling throughout the body.
Speaker:And so there's a lot of confusion.
Speaker:And the other nuance to lactoferrin is it
Speaker:becomes apo and holo.
Speaker:Did you know that?
Speaker:No, I don't know.
Speaker:Could you explain that slightly?
Speaker:Apo is empty.
Speaker:Holo is full.
Speaker:So they actually sell people full
Speaker:lactoferrin that has iron already
Speaker:attached to it because
Speaker:we're anemic, don't you know?
Speaker:When in fact, what we really need is apo
Speaker:lactoferrin, like mother nature produces
Speaker:in the cattle, so that we can gobble up
Speaker:the iron that's the
Speaker:cause of all of our problems.
Speaker:It's iron, the concept of aging,
Speaker:everyone's into longevity now.
Speaker:All the really, you know, hip scientists
Speaker:are talking about
Speaker:longevity and reversing aging.
Speaker:Well, what is longevity?
Speaker:Lack of oxidative stress.
Speaker:Lack of oxidative stress.
Speaker:And what's another way of saying aging?
Speaker:Iron accumulation.
Speaker:Yeah, that makes complete sense.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And that's the work of
Speaker:Denham Harmon from 1956.
Speaker:He was a former, he was a PhD industrial
Speaker:engineer who studied oxidative stress in
Speaker:the industrial setting.
Speaker:And he thought, he was in his 30s.
Speaker:He thought, Jim, what if
Speaker:this applies to humans?
Speaker:And so he decides to become a doctor
Speaker:and he goes to Stanford.
Speaker:So he's not your average Jim
Speaker:and gets his medical degree.
Speaker:And he creates this whole concept of the
Speaker:free radical theory of aging,
Speaker:which put the world of conventional
Speaker:medicine on its ear.
Speaker:And then 50 years later, he was 40 years
Speaker:old when he wrote the first article.
Speaker:When he was 90 years old,
Speaker:he updated his findings.
Speaker:And it's like, it's the most accepted
Speaker:model of aging on the planet is Denham
Speaker:Harmon's free radical theory of aging.
Speaker:And we're back to the three ring circus,
Speaker:iron, oxygen, and copper.
Speaker:We've got to manage those three elements.
Speaker:And that's the ultimate goal of the Root
Speaker:Cause Protocol is that when they are
Speaker:managed, you're going to make more
Speaker:energy, you're going to clear more
Speaker:exhaust, and you're
Speaker:going to have fewer symptoms.
Speaker:It's the whole basis of the argument.
Speaker:And it seems to bear witness in the
Speaker:people who do it on a regular basis.
Speaker:Oli, that was fantastic.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:I think that's a perfect
Speaker:place to end it as well.
Speaker:You were a terrific guest.
Speaker:I think you've already suggested as much,
Speaker:but where can people find you if they'd
Speaker:like to learn more, maybe specifically
Speaker:about you and your protocol?
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:People are welcome to buy my book.
Speaker:It's called Curie Your Fatigue.
Speaker:There'll be a second
Speaker:edition coming out in November.
Speaker:So you can certainly
Speaker:enroll for the second edition.
Speaker:You can still buy the first if you want.
Speaker:The website, rcp123.org.
Speaker:We have a community, the RCP community,
Speaker:that meets every other week.
Speaker:That's on Facebook.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It meets every other week.
Speaker:And people get to ask
Speaker:questions, and I'm always there.
Speaker:We have an institute where we train
Speaker:people about these principles.
Speaker:It's a 16-week program.
Speaker:And we welcome people
Speaker:being a part of that.
Speaker:We're in class number 4,
Speaker:16, in group number 22.
Speaker:We've trained just under 1,000 people
Speaker:now, coming up with 900 people.
Speaker:Very exciting.
Speaker:We're on all sorts of social media.
Speaker:And then I always let people know that
Speaker:they can reach out to me personally at my
Speaker:email address, morleyrobins at gmail.com.
Speaker:Or for the brazen few that want to call
Speaker:me, it's ericode847-922-8061.
Speaker:And I've never met a question I didn't
Speaker:enjoy, but I appreciate the chance to
Speaker:help people understand these concepts and
Speaker:really value our time
Speaker:together in that regard.
Speaker:So thank you for the dance, if you will.
Speaker:Definitely.
Speaker:That's very gracious of you.
Speaker:And thank you for your time, Morley.
Speaker:It was an honor to speak to you.
