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Episode 3

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Published on:

22nd May 2024

#003 Johannes Kettelhodt - Everything you need to know about infrared saunas and Clearlight

vitalityPRO

#003 Johannes Kettelhodt - Everything you need to know about infrared saunas and Clearlight

Johannes Kettelhodt is the CEO and Co-Founder of Clearlight Saunas International, where he leads a global team of around 40 like-minded people who share a common vision: to deliver wellness solutions to one billion households, aimed at improving and extending lifespan.

With a bachelor's degree in Engineering, Johannes has a strong background in developing and implementing sustainable and efficient technologies that enhance health and well-being. For the past 9 years, he has been at the head of Clearlight Saunas International, managing the holding company with a focus on growth and innovation. Under his leadership, the company has become an 8-figure business operating in more than 7 countries, committed to enhancing the quality of life and lifespan of people around the world.

Johannes is dedicated to utilising the latest research to develop and market world-class products that are high-quality, science-backed, and effective. 


> During our discussion, you’ll discover:


(00:03:32) - How Johannes got into the sauna space

(00:05:57) - The difference between infrared saunas and other types of saunas

(00:10:57) - EMF and ELF, what they are and why they matter

(00:17:42) - Why Clearlight started using red light therapy panels in their saunas

(00:23:09) - The specific benefits and use cases of Sauna

(00:27:07) - Lipolysis, what it is and how saunas start to liberate toxins from the body.

(00:28:22) - The famous Niacin Detox protocol and why it’s so effective

(00:33:03) - How sauna use can help with pain management issues

(00:39:24) - Where to find Clearlight and Johannes


The vP life Podcast is brought to you by vitalityPRO, a supplement company based in the UK that provides you with the latest in health, anti-ageing and longevity supplementation. What makes vitalityPRO unique is that it third-party tests every product batch for quality, purity, heavy metals and other contaminants. vitalityPRO’s mission is simple: provide you with confidence in the quality and effectiveness of your longevity supplements that focus on restoring your cellular health.


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Transcript
Rob:

Hello everybody and

Rob:

welcome to the vP life podcast

Rob:

brought to you by vitalityPRO.

Rob:

My name's Rob and I'll be your host on today's episode.

Rob:

Today we're sitting down with Johannes Kettelhodt from Clearlight Saunas.

Rob:

Johannes, an engineer by training, is the CEO and distributor of Clearlight

Rob:

in the UK, the EU and Australasia.

Rob:

Today's episode really covers everything you've likely ever wanted to know

Rob:

about sauna, and Johannes and I discuss what makes infrared saunas unique,

Rob:

why they're potentially a healthier option for you than traditional

Rob:

saunas, how they work in the body, the famous Niacin protocol for heavy

Rob:

metal detoxification, and so much more.

Rob:

As usual, all the links to this episode will be available in the show notes, which

Rob:

you can find in the description below.

Rob:

Then, I'd like to ask you a favor.

Rob:

Our little podcast is slowly gaining traction, and we'd love

Rob:

it if you could leave us a review wherever you listen to podcasts.

Rob:

This will help us grow, reach more people and allow us to host future guests.

Rob:

And with that, on with the show.

Rob:

Hi, Johannes.

Rob:

Thanks for joining us today.

Rob:

Well, this is going to be a podcast, obviously about sauna.

Rob:

Would you care to introduce yourself quickly?

Rob:

Just tell us a bit about Clearlight and your backstory.

Johannes:

Sure.

Johannes:

Uh, thanks for having me, Rob.

Johannes:

Uh, G'day everyone.

Johannes:

My name's Johannes.

Johannes:

I'm one of the two CEOs of

Johannes:

Clearlight Saunas International.

Johannes:

Um, Yeah, as the name indicates, uh, Clearlight Saunas is a sauna brand.

Johannes:

It's not any traditional one, but it's an infrared sauna brand.

Johannes:

Been around for approximately 25 years.

Johannes:

And I think I've really taken, uh, the biohacking health community in a storm.

Johannes:

Um, you know, some of our.

Johannes:

Ambassadors or, um, spokespeople are the likes of Ben Greenfield, Dr.

Johannes:

Josh Axe, and a few other international athletes and medical doctors.

Johannes:

And I think the true reason on why Clearlight really championed the

Johannes:

infrared sauna popularity in that health and wellness space is the fact that

Johannes:

they come with an outstanding quality or a build of outstanding quality.

Johannes:

And we issue a lifetime warranty, um, from a health perspective,

Johannes:

it's a true low EMF and ELF sauna.

Johannes:

I'm sure we'll dive deeper into what exactly that means.

Johannes:

And we use Medical grade heaters that we sort of invented ourselves to really

Johannes:

raise the core temperature effectively.

Johannes:

For those who don't know an infrared sauna.

Johannes:

Um, works using infrared heating panels as opposed to hot air.

Johannes:

Um, and I'm sure we'll sort of dive into the mechanics, um, off that a

Johannes:

little bit further down the track.

Johannes:

Um, my background is, uh, engineering.

Johannes:

So I sort of didn't really, you know, didn't wake up one day or had the

Johannes:

vision to actually become a wellness entrepreneur, but, um, instead,

Johannes:

uh, yeah, I'd really enjoy it, uh, breaking down complex topics around

Johannes:

technology, um, into day to day

Johannes:

. Bites for people to apply.

Johannes:

Always been fairly health conscious, ran a marathon, did

Johannes:

elite sports at a very young age.

Johannes:

And actually realized quite quickly that, you know, if I look after my temple,

Johannes:

my body, my soul world, and I tend to have more energy on the output level.

Johannes:

Um, and that sort of all, you know, led to, I think me being open, uh, around

Johannes:

opportunities and health and wellness.

Johannes:

And then when I was 23, we sort of jumped on and, um, yeah, sort of

Johannes:

internationalized Clearlight and, um,

Johannes:

now we're sort of working on another brand.

Johannes:

For a few different products.

Johannes:

Um, but ultimately that's my, uh, brief story.

Rob:

What about sauna specifically attracted you to

Rob:

it as a health entrepreneur?

Rob:

Obviously you, you could have gone down the, uh, the sort of the cold, the

Rob:

cold route, you could have, uh, gone down the red light route specifically.

Rob:

What was it about sauna that really attracted you to it?

Johannes:

Yeah.

Johannes:

It's a good question.

Johannes:

I mean, I think we can all agree that saunas over the last

Johannes:

specifically five years, uh, have gained a lot of popularity.

Johannes:

Yeah.

Johannes:

You know, I think COVID definitely accelerated that and, and I feel

Johannes:

very similar fashion, uh, or trend happening with cold plunges at

Johannes:

the moment, or in general, like, you know, cold water exposure.

Johannes:

But when we started, this was the year 2013, like, you know,

Johannes:

I barely knew infrared saunas.

Johannes:

I only knew saunas from my childhood and I was born and raised in Germany.

Johannes:

Uh, there's a very strong sauna culture, not to be compared with

Johannes:

Finland, but it's definitely, it's probably second or third, uh, you know,

Johannes:

rank when it comes to sauna culture.

Johannes:

So as kids, we used to go out on weekends or even, you know, sometimes during

Johannes:

the week as the whole family into like a public sauna space, we'd, you know,

Johannes:

take a few different sauna sessions.

Johannes:

So, you know, I personally, Really got used to heat

Johannes:

mechanisms at a very young age.

Johannes:

Um, and I think then when I sort of saw this opportunity, I was like,

Johannes:

well, you know, let's actually look a little bit deeper into, you know,

Johannes:

what are the mechanistic, well, what mechanisms are there for soreness?

Johannes:

Um, and it literally was a whole different universe that opened up.

Johannes:

Um, you know, back then, yeah, there was little evidence around it, but, you know,

Johannes:

we kind of saw the first studies and the first, um, endorsements come through.

Johannes:

Uh, and that's essentially what we said, well, you know, this is a great product.

Johannes:

Uh, it's a great driver for longevity and heat and specifically

Johannes:

in the infrared sauna field.

Johannes:

There were hardly any companies that had really gone internationally, uh, and

Johannes:

that really had a very strong promise.

Johannes:

Around health, you know, that was actually the time when infrared

Johannes:

saunas per se were really high in EMF.

Johannes:

The industry didn't know better.

Johannes:

There were a ton of different old clunky, very hot heaters around that actually made

Johannes:

it very uncomfortable to stay in at times.

Johannes:

But I think Clearlight really had pioneered low EMF technology.

Johannes:

And we were like, holy, holy hell, like this is a gem.

Johannes:

Like, you know, the world needs to hear about this.

Johannes:

Um, so I think it's a mixture of, you know, being at the right time

Johannes:

at the, at the right location, and I think having that cultural heritage

Johannes:

around saunas and heat exposure.

Rob:

Fair enough.

Rob:

Yeah.

Rob:

Um, you've mentioned infrared and, uh, EMF and ELF, uh, a few times now.

Rob:

Um, what is, what, what defines an infrared sauna?

Rob:

I mean, as you know, the work Rhonda Patrick's done specifically around saunas,

Rob:

uh, where she sort of seems to sort of, Be more interested in dry saunas,

Rob:

mainly for the increased heat output.

Rob:

Um, but what makes an infrared and an infrared sauna and sort of how

Rob:

does it benefit, um, not benefit, how does it compare to say a dry sauna

Rob:

or your more traditional steam room?

Johannes:

Yeah, I mean, I think to really understand it, I think we have to quickly

Johannes:

recap on what a traditional sauna is.

Johannes:

A traditional sauna, uh, you know, has been around for centuries

Johannes:

and utilizes hot air, uh, as a primary mechanism, um, of heat.

Johannes:

So typically you would have one, uh, stove and a sauna, uh, and you

Johannes:

know, over time you would achieve air temperatures of say 60, 70, degrees,

Johannes:

depending on how hot you like it.

Johannes:

And you'd have an outburst.

Johannes:

Which is, you know, literally put hot water on the stone and you, you know,

Johannes:

that would essentially create, uh, steam.

Johannes:

Um, and yeah, it would be cranking hot.

Johannes:

Uh, you would do two or three rounds, you know, five to 20 minutes, sometimes

Johannes:

even 25, which I find unimaginable.

Johannes:

It's just so freaking hot.

Johannes:

And, you know, that you, you know, I mean, in between you take time, you

Johannes:

know, down times, you take a cold shower, and then you just literally relax.

Johannes:

And, you know, the whole protocol, if you do it properly, probably

Johannes:

takes you two or three hours.

Johannes:

And it's, I genuinely think it's one of the best feelings in the world coming out

Johannes:

of two or three rounds of steam sauna.

Johannes:

And I think the reason why Rhonda Patrick, um, and you know, some of the

Johannes:

other health professionals, um, are very fond of traditional saunas is that

Johannes:

they've been around for much longer and therefore have been studied a lot more

Johannes:

in depth compared to infrared saunas.

Johannes:

Infrared has only been really invented, or has been identified, I think in the

Johannes:

1800s by Herschel, um, Um, and then in 1976 or something, I think they

Johannes:

created the first sort of infrared heater, um, which then actually made

Johannes:

up an infrared sauna for that on the, uh, for that on the time in Japan.

Johannes:

So this whole technology is only 40 years old, but the good thing

Johannes:

is that infrared can be found.

Johannes:

pretty much everywhere in nature.

Johannes:

So infrared is part of the invisible light spectrum.

Johannes:

It also refers to electromagnetic frequency or energy.

Johannes:

You have different types of infrared.

Johannes:

You have near, middle, and far infrared.

Johannes:

They all vary in terms of the wavelength or the spectrums, the

Johannes:

penetration depth into the skin, and some of the unique benefits.

Johannes:

But the bottom line is This light is being absorbed or it penetrates into

Johannes:

our skin over time, our core temperature goes up because obviously our body

Johannes:

needs to deal with that influx of heat.

Johannes:

Um, we start breaking a sweat, um, and then we literally

Johannes:

get a cardiovascular workout.

Johannes:

And so, you know, in terms of sweating and infrared, it's one actually

Johannes:

helps you as well to sweat profusely.

Johannes:

In fact, I would probably, And really intense and good infrared sauna.

Johannes:

If you do it for 45 to 50 minutes, it's going to help you sweat more

Johannes:

than a traditional sauna because you're staying in there for longer.

Johannes:

Right.

Johannes:

So I sort of spoke about these two or three rounds of a traditional

Johannes:

sauna and an infrared sauna, you do a minimum of 20 minutes, um, up to your

Johannes:

maximum of 45 or 50 minutes, if you can stand it, um, and our research

Johannes:

and other research has essentially shown that during this, uh, this Time.

Johannes:

Um, your core temperature can raise, um, for up to 1.

Johannes:

6 and 1.

Johannes:

5 degrees Celsius.

Johannes:

Which is 38.

Johannes:

4, 38.

Johannes:

5 degrees Celsius, depending on where you measure it.

Johannes:

So that is a proper fever.

Johannes:

Like if you woke up one day and you'd have 38.

Johannes:

5 core temperature, you would stay at home in bed because you realize your

Johannes:

body is sort of going through something and you need to, you know, you need to

Johannes:

take rest and, and an infrared sauna and heat stress in general helps us

Johannes:

go through a similar mechanism and.

Johannes:

Yeah, so therefore I do think they're alike in some ways, but obviously the way

Johannes:

that heat is generated, the way he uses solar is different, and the scientific

Johannes:

evidence is also much different.

Johannes:

Traditional saunas have been around for longer, they are better studied,

Johannes:

there are more studies on that.

Johannes:

But infrared saunas are catching up in terms of a popularity.

Johannes:

And I'd love to, you know, sort of shed some light on that as well down the track.

Johannes:

Um, but also in terms of medical and scientific research papers that are coming

Johannes:

out, there's a ton of benefits about them.

Johannes:

I've seen the first doctors and, and, you know, very active biohackers and

Johannes:

social media that are not just, um, sort of wellness gurus, but also, you know,

Johannes:

have a medical or scientific background.

Johannes:

Actually speaking up about the fact that they believe infrared saunas

Johannes:

are more superior than traditional.

Johannes:

I think all of that is yet to be determined because to my knowledge,

Johannes:

there's not a single study that has really compared whether one

Johannes:

or the other is more beneficial.

Rob:

So in a sense, infrared saunas are sort of heating the

Rob:

core almost as a microwave would, essentially, in a very rough sense.

Rob:

With a lot of, uh, cheaper infrared saunas, uh, you tend to see that

Rob:

they don't come with these warnings about, uh, these ideas of EMF and ELF.

Rob:

Can you sort of just touch on that briefly and why it's so important to

Rob:

have a infrared sauna that carries low EMF and low ELF, uh, ratings?

Johannes:

Yeah, 100%.

Johannes:

I think it's a very important topic.

Johannes:

EMF stands for Electromagnetic Frequencies.

Johannes:

ELF stands for Extremely Low Frequencies.

Johannes:

And then you have a different type of frequency, which we find in our day to day

Johannes:

lives, which is, uh, radio frequencies.

Johannes:

Uh, Bluetooth and wifi for those that are new to this topic, I'm sure you guys all

Johannes:

understand that sleeping on a wifi router wouldn't be beneficial for your health.

Johannes:

I mean, I'm sure everyone understands that these devices give off some sort

Johannes:

of frequency that carries information.

Johannes:

And there's a similar analogy when it comes to EMF and ELF.

Johannes:

Um, if you think about an electric occurrence, and that

Johannes:

could literally be your computer that you're charging right now.

Johannes:

There is electricity running through the cable into the device whenever we

Johannes:

have electricity from minus and plus or however you want to exchange these poles.

Johannes:

You have an invisible electromagnetic field building up

Johannes:

around the cable or wherever the electric current runs through.

Johannes:

The stronger the electricity consumption or the stronger the s in there are, the,

Johannes:

the stronger the electromagnetic field is.

Johannes:

So that's the, the, the bottom line.

Johannes:

You know, this is measured at millis.

Johannes:

You have another frequency that is called extremely low frequencies,

Johannes:

that's measured in volt per square centimeter or square meter, depending

Johannes:

on how you want to calculate it.

Johannes:

And again, it's a, it's an invisible field of electromagnetic frequencies

Johannes:

or energy sort of surrounding wherever electricity runs through.

Johannes:

And this has been studied extensively, particularly over the last 10 to 15 years.

Johannes:

And there's a lot of research and evidence coming out that High exposure

Johannes:

to these types of frequencies is potentially harmful for a human body.

Johannes:

Some of the, uh, health risks are around dementia, around,

Johannes:

uh, insomnia, around fatigue.

Johannes:

You mentioned brain fog, brain fog when we spoke yesterday.

Johannes:

I know for a fact that in Germany, um, electro or hyper, uh, electro

Johannes:

sensitivity is now actually Uh, consider a disease in Germany.

Johannes:

So if someone has actually had for years and an artificially high exposure

Johannes:

to these types of frequencies, they literally get brain fog and fright

Johannes:

and they feel dizzy and can't work.

Johannes:

And we see that on a day to day basis.

Johannes:

Now, you know, you might have heard about the potential, potentially harmful

Johannes:

benefits of airports, where if you have your phone, you know, on your, on your

Johannes:

ear for a long time, there are some scans that, and I think even the World Health

Johannes:

Organization has actually raised concerns about the, um, artificial exposure

Johannes:

of, uh, high concentrations of EMF.

Johannes:

In some situations, I think it's unavoidable.

Johannes:

We work in a public space, you know, there is naturally a higher exposure to

Johannes:

EMF, but this is particularly concerning when you speak about an infrared sauna.

Johannes:

Why an infrared sauna?

Johannes:

Because you have many different infrared heating elements built into the cabin.

Johannes:

It could be a cabin of two times two meters, or a meter by one meter, and you

Johannes:

have, say, 10 different heaters in there.

Johannes:

And each of these heaters It obviously needs to run with electricity.

Johannes:

So that's why you have a lot of EMF exposure fields around it and

Johannes:

particularly cheaper, but not only cheaper, even, you know, you find

Johannes:

some infrared sort of companies that actually don't know or don't care.

Johannes:

Um, EMF exposure particularly is an issue.

Johannes:

And if you think about the fact of why people might invest in an infrared

Johannes:

sauna, well, it's to obviously, you know.

Johannes:

Do something good for the health, you know, de stress, uh, help down,

Johannes:

help regulate the nervous system.

Johannes:

You know, maybe they have a health issue that they want to combat.

Johannes:

And obviously if you sit in this cabin and you're literally getting

Johannes:

fried by this EMF and ELF because the company didn't tell you, or you

Johannes:

didn't know, um, you might actually potentially be causing yourself more

Johannes:

harm, than actually doing good for you.

Johannes:

And that's why this topic is so important.

Johannes:

Um, and this is why I think, you know, we really tried to educate

Johannes:

on the different frequencies.

Johannes:

What could be done about it?

Johannes:

What is a typical threshold that you really need to ask the manufacturer on?

Johannes:

And yeah, it's, it's shocking because I'd probably say 90 percent of the

Johannes:

companies out there don't care.

Rob:

Yeah.

Rob:

No, I've, I've just looked it up while you were, while you were speaking.

Rob:

It's now, uh, EMF is now considered a class to be, uh, carcinogen by

Rob:

the world health organization.

Rob:

Uh, so it is sort of gaining traction as to how the sort of non

Rob:

native, uh, frequencies are actually dangerous for the human body.

Rob:

Uh, mechanistically, uh, just coming from, from, from our side, uh, what they

Rob:

do is they seem to disrupt the cell quite a lot and they can actually damage a

Rob:

number of enzymes, including pop enzymes.

Rob:

So.

Rob:

Stop their function, which are involved in DNA repair and DNA replication.

Rob:

So, um, yeah, and I know Andrew Huberman has also talked about the dangers of EMF.

Rob:

Uh, although mentioned, although they were rat studies, um, high doses of

Rob:

these non native frequencies again around, uh, rat testicles resulted in.

Rob:

The rat's becoming basically hypergonadal, um, so that seems to be more related to

Rob:

the fact that it was directly heating up the testes and, um, damaging, uh,

Rob:

and damaging the testicles so that they weren't actually able to produce,

Rob:

uh, testosterone as well as sperm.

Rob:

But yeah, it would, it is, it could probably lead us to a whole

Rob:

conversation about grounding and I'm sure you've, you've, uh, absolutely.

Rob:

Yeah, you've looked at Clint Ober's work specifically around this, but

Rob:

yeah, human body does not need any more inflammation or any more dysregulated,

Rob:

uh, movement of calcium into cells.

Rob:

So yeah, it's especially important.

Rob:

And, uh, I think, well, I know that one way to mitigate that is to increase

Rob:

your, uh, magnesium, um, intake, um, high amounts of EMF exposure can.

Rob:

basically open gaseous calcium channels and allow excess calcium into the

Rob:

cell, which is an excitatory molecule and can create cellular damage.

Rob:

And basic biochemistry dictates that calcium and magnesium work in tandem.

Rob:

So the more magnesium you have, the less calcium within a cell you

Rob:

have, essentially, in a nutshell.

Rob:

So that's definitely one way around it, although it's just a

Rob:

patch and not really a solution.

Rob:

And it's arguably one of the, uh, The reasons why we as a society have

Rob:

such low magnesium levels, aside from the fact that there's just a dearth

Rob:

of magnesium in the food supply.

Rob:

Um, yeah, no, it's, it's incredibly important and not just something

Rob:

that should be obviously talked about just in the, In the realm of saunas,

Rob:

but yeah, I think that's perfect, uh, to wrap that point up there.

Rob:

I suppose the last thing I'd like to discuss with regards to

Rob:

clearlight specifically is just, is just the red light panels that

Rob:

you can buy as add on attachments.

Rob:

And would you sort of just like to quickly touch on that, uh, and why clearlight

Rob:

sort of offers this, this option?

Rob:

I think you're just about the only people in the industry who do.

Johannes:

Yeah, at least at an adequate output.

Johannes:

Um, yeah, I'd love to.

Johannes:

I mean, I think, you know, our vision has always been to create a space

Johannes:

that really allows, um, you know, healing or or sort of wellness benefits

Johannes:

to the, to the person using it.

Johannes:

And, you know, I think we can all observe, uh, with friends, family, or

Johannes:

ourselves that it feels like we have less and less time on a day to day basis.

Johannes:

You know, there's more and more work, responsibilities, uh,

Johannes:

stress that essentially all contributes to that overall feeling.

Johannes:

And the consequences, I think that we tend to oftentimes not prioritize

Johannes:

our wellbeing as we'd like.

Johannes:

I can observe that with, you know, in my own day to day as well.

Johannes:

And coming back to that, you know, we'd sort of really start at.

Johannes:

Thinking about how can we maximize the benefit of the Clearlight

Johannes:

sauna users when they really have an hour that they can set aside?

Johannes:

And you know, with sauna use, it really comes down to the frequency.

Johannes:

Ideally, you really want to do it, you know, three, four, five, six times a week.

Johannes:

You know, some of the research has indicated that, you know, the more

Johannes:

you use it, you know, the sort of the better the health benefits.

Johannes:

And it's.

Johannes:

Significant numbers in terms of what, you know, very frequent sauna or

Johannes:

heat exposure does to your overall longevity and health and altogether.

Johannes:

When we come back to this, you know, if we, our dream scenario

Johannes:

would obviously be that a person uses the sauna an hour a day, you

Johannes:

know, 15 to 20 minutes per heating time, 40 to 45 minutes of using it.

Johannes:

Um, you know, during the sauna, uh, you could listen to a podcast, you could

Johannes:

do a meditation, you could read a book, you know, because you have much lower

Johannes:

temperatures, you don't have the steam, um, so therefore it's perfectly safe

Johannes:

to take potentially even a phone in there for a little bit of time, which

Johannes:

we don't recommend, but you could.

Johannes:

And then we sort of wondered, well, you know, we got the infrared heat,

Johannes:

we got sound, we, you know, we sort of have the space, what other health

Johannes:

amenities can we actually bring in there?

Johannes:

And that's essentially when we sort of started thinking along the

Johannes:

lines of, well, you know, wouldn't red light therapy be actually be

Johannes:

a great add on to fit in there?

Johannes:

Red Light Therapy is also the FDA class two approved technology.

Johannes:

I think it's very well known, um, in the health and wellness space.

Johannes:

It's been very well studied all together with, I think, multiple

Johannes:

of thousand studies on the various different health benefits.

Johannes:

Um, and that's essentially when it, you know, we had it on our

Johannes:

radar and we figured out a way to integrate it into the sauna.

Johannes:

Now this is easier said than done because in a sauna you tend to

Johannes:

have, uh, environments of 60, 65 degrees Celsius at times.

Johannes:

Yeah.

Johannes:

Yeah.

Johannes:

And for those that know red light therapy, they often use fans to cool the LEDs

Johannes:

that dictates the lifespan of an LED.

Johannes:

And that's essentially where the engineering challenge really was and

Johannes:

figuring, well, how can we do that?

Johannes:

And also, how can we build a device so that the LED intensity doesn't

Johannes:

deteriorate due to the heat over time?

Johannes:

And that's, I think, three or four years ago, we launched

Johannes:

the red light therapy add on.

Johannes:

It's a very intense unit that is literally attached to the door.

Johannes:

Uh, and then you can obviously, while you're still in there, you can

Johannes:

also turn on the red light therapy tower for say 10, 15, 20 minutes.

Johannes:

And, and really make sure that your mitochondria get a

Johannes:

little bit of boost through the photobiomodulation effect as well.

Johannes:

We also have our assault therapy, so you can also integrate an inhaler.

Johannes:

We're working on an aromatherapy.

Johannes:

And I think the dream to come true, which we've been working on for a number of

Johannes:

years would be a UVB or vitamin D light.

Johannes:

Cause obviously I know you're in Northern England, I'm in

Johannes:

at the moment, I'm in Germany.

Johannes:

There is a chronic lack of light at this time of the year, particularly,

Johannes:

um, you know, intense UV light in order to make sure that our vitamin D levels

Johannes:

are, are okay or where they should be.

Johannes:

And I just really think thinking along those lines of how we can

Johannes:

stack these different amenities in a useful way to maximize the

Johannes:

value for the user in the sauna.

Johannes:

It's a very worthwhile task on our end.

Johannes:

And, you know, we've been working a lot on this.

Rob:

Perfect.

Rob:

And those red lights, I assume that they sort of cover a, a wide range

Rob:

of wavelengths, sort of all the way, your sort of 600 all the way up to

Rob:

about 900 nanometers, is that correct?

Johannes:

Yeah, exactly.

Johannes:

So you kind of wanna be in the 600 to 660, 670, and then 800 to 860, 870.

Johannes:

Right.

Johannes:

So red light, near and red separately.

Johannes:

Um, but obviously in the infrared solar, we use a very wide spectrum.

Johannes:

You know, we have full spectrum heaters in there that combine

Johannes:

near, middle, and far infrared.

Johannes:

We have red light in the roof.

Johannes:

We have far infrared heaters with a very broad spectrum,

Johannes:

um, sort of all around you.

Johannes:

And I think that's truly what makes the red light therapy another worthwhile

Johannes:

purchase because you, as you said, like, you really need those two generic

Johannes:

wavelengths at a very high intensity, you know, and, and I think there are some

Johannes:

companies that claim, Oh, we got red light in our sauna, but it's not intense enough.

Johannes:

Like, you know, I think it really needs to be more than a hundred milliwatts per

Johannes:

square centimeter, obviously, depending on the distance of where you use it.

Johannes:

And that's not an easy thing to achieve, you know, just putting in

Johannes:

red light strips won't do the trick.

Rob:

And I'm sure it's, yeah, somewhat of a logistical

Rob:

nightmare, at least to start with.

Rob:

It doesn't sound like something I'd like to try and really have a go at.

Rob:

Anyway, should we, uh, sort of touch on some of the benefits

Rob:

of, well, maybe not benefits.

Rob:

We've already sort of gone through those, but some of the

Rob:

more targeted, um, use cases.

Rob:

I know.

Rob:

I'm sure you've had a lot of people come to you with certain sorts of,

Rob:

uh, well, medical, medical challenges, should we say, opposed to complaints,

Rob:

um, generally speaking, where, where do you find people or what sort of

Rob:

issues do you find people have the most relief from sauna, uh, from in general?

Johannes:

I think the biggest one is stress, you know, by far, and,

Johannes:

and potentially linked to that sleep quality and sleep duration.

Johannes:

Um, it could obviously rattle on about these, you know, these, these

Johannes:

are cardiovascular disease and other lifestyle related diseases.

Johannes:

Which we'll talk about, sure.

Johannes:

But I think the biggest one, which is hard to quantify is stress.

Johannes:

Um, you know, I think the fact that people always say, well, if I've

Johannes:

had my sauna, you know, just before I go to bed, I feel so much better.

Johannes:

Um, you know, I sleep a lot better.

Johannes:

Um, I feel more balanced.

Johannes:

My skin looks better.

Johannes:

So just really seems to be this overall mood and confidence shifter.

Johannes:

And I think a big part of that is the regulation of our nervous system.

Johannes:

You know, I think it's very, very easy nowadays to be in that

Johannes:

constant fight or flight mode.

Johannes:

You know, we get a lot of work stress, emotional stress, financial stress.

Johannes:

And I think if we spend the last two hours before getting to bed on a phone or having

Johannes:

to work or, you know, just dealing with some of these stresses, I think that,

Johannes:

you know, truly has an effect on our nervous system and on our sleep quality.

Johannes:

And I think the great thing about the sauna is it's literally a sauna, right?

Johannes:

So you walk in there, ideally you don't take your phone, no one

Johannes:

technically can get hold of you.

Johannes:

And it really helps you come into that, you know, parasympathetic nervous system

Johannes:

state to really actually wind down.

Johannes:

And actually, you know, and I think along those lines, saunas have

Johannes:

been shown to increase melatonin.

Johannes:

You know, people don't fully understand yet whether it's really the heat

Johannes:

mechanism or whether it's literally through the relaxation and through the

Johannes:

down regulation of the nervous system.

Johannes:

But I think that's a big one.

Johannes:

Um, another big one, I think, which is kind of linked to stress

Johannes:

is really cardiovascular health and cardiovascular diseases.

Johannes:

Obviously depends, uh, on, on how soon someone gets onto that.

Johannes:

But I think we can all agree that cardiovascular disease is a major,

Johannes:

uh, driver nowadays for mortalities.

Johannes:

So to speak, we have blood pressure, chronically high blood pressure,

Johannes:

which seems to be linked to stress, but also other conditions.

Johannes:

Our strokes, we have heart attacks.

Johannes:

Um, and I think if we really can actually proactively work on allowing us to de

Johannes:

stress, allowing our cardiovascular system to get that workout, you know,

Johannes:

as long as have been shown in the long term to help regulate blood pressure,

Johannes:

um, especially high blood pressure.

Johannes:

Uh, I think that is a major driver when it comes to overall health because I

Johannes:

don't know the numbers for the UK, but I believe it's kind of around 50 or 60

Johannes:

percent where essentially cardiovascular diseases or issues are linked to, to

Johannes:

death, to all the deaths reported.

Johannes:

And I think for some countries, it's even higher, such as the US or Australia.

Johannes:

I think a really, really important one is detoxification.

Johannes:

Um, I know we, you know, you know, we both have a passion for that obviously, and I'd

Johannes:

love to hear your, your take on the kind of normal pathways of, of a human body.

Johannes:

But for a long time, it was believed that the internal organs are the

Johannes:

main drivers for detoxification.

Johannes:

That is true to quite an extent, which I'm sure you'll talk about.

Johannes:

But I think in some studies around 2014, it was also shown that sweating

Johannes:

and our skin is potentially another major driver for the detoxification.

Johannes:

And, you know, it really depends on the substances and on, on the, you

Johannes:

know, on what we want to detoxify from.

Johannes:

Um, but sweat has been shown to be more effective when it comes

Johannes:

to certain heavy metals, such as cadmium, arsen, um, aluminium.

Johannes:

Um, but also PCS and PCBs, um, which is sort of more micro

Johannes:

plastics, uh, in lay terms.

Johannes:

But you know, it's, you can't generalize the fact that, you know, sweating

Johannes:

is more effective than our internal detox, detoxification pathways.

Johannes:

Um, but there is a lot of evidence around, you know, infrared

Johannes:

saunas supporting your detox.

Johannes:

You know, it all comes down to the, uh, you know, toxins

Johannes:

being stored in our fat cells.

Johannes:

I think you spoke about the lap lipolysis, I think yesterday.

Rob:

Lipolysis.

Johannes:

Yeah, lipolysis.

Johannes:

Thank you.

Johannes:

But ultimately, you know, there are infrared saunas have really shown

Johannes:

to help, you know, flush some of these toxins out there, protocols

Johannes:

around, for instance, detox protocol.

Johannes:

And I know you have a lot more in depth understanding when it comes

Johannes:

to the biochemical or biochem Yeah.

Johannes:

Biochemistry, uh, inside the body.

Johannes:

So probably hand over to you for a few minutes.

Rob:

Cool, yeah.

Rob:

So, what sauna does really well, among other things, is it sort of,

Rob:

as you know, it activates, it creates a state of hormesis, which is a

Rob:

cellular stress response in the body.

Rob:

And when that stress response is activated by the body, it activates

Rob:

a certain pathway called NRF2.

Rob:

And NRF2 is, uh, responsible for the creation of, of glutathione,

Rob:

which is the body's main, sort of, main antioxidant, among many.

Rob:

But what glutathione does is, is it allows the body to help, in layman's terms,

Rob:

excrete a lot of these substances that are stored, um, in the, in the body.

Rob:

However, whilst glutathione is great at sort of getting rid of a lot of these,

Rob:

these toxins, It's not able to always liberate them, which is where things like

Rob:

the niacin protocol come into their own.

Rob:

So.

Rob:

What high dose niacin does is it helps to activate lipolysis or the liberation

Rob:

of free fatty acids in the bloodstream.

Rob:

And as you know, toxins are really stored in fat, especially fat soluble ones.

Rob:

So, yeah, the idea with the niacin detox protocol is that you build up

Rob:

to a high dose of niacin over time.

Rob:

Um, it, it's not something you want to do necessarily by yourself or without

Rob:

the, um, Maybe the guidance of a physician because high dose niacin for

Rob:

extended periods of time can Uh, actually cause issues like insulin resistance.

Rob:

And there was a paper released just the other day that suggested that it can

Rob:

actually damage, and I can't remember the name of them, so I'm not going to

Rob:

try, uh, certain receptors in the heart for, with long term usage, which is

Rob:

why it's now not being looked at as an effective way to boost your NAD levels,

Rob:

as I'm sure you know, uh, vitamin B3, niacin is sort of the backbone, a lot of

Rob:

these NAD precursors, NMN, NR, et cetera.

Rob:

Uh, but whereas NR and NMN seem to have a slightly, well they do, they have a

Rob:

safer safety profile with long term use.

Rob:

Uh, it appears that niacin doesn't, that's not to say that obviously

Rob:

you can't use it in the short term, um, especially at high doses, but

Rob:

it's just something to be aware of.

Rob:

And anyway, uh, the, the sauna detox protocol with niacin, I think it

Rob:

was initially sort of put together by a gentleman called Ron Hubbard.

Rob:

Uh, I think that's correct.

Rob:

And yeah, the idea is that you take a large quantity of niacin prior to a sauna

Rob:

session, and that helps to start, uh, liberating a lot of these toxins stored

Rob:

in fat that you can then start getting out by, yeah, activating glutathione, uh,

Rob:

synthesis, utilizing heat to directly, uh, push the toxins out through the

Rob:

lymphatic system, out through the sweat.

Rob:

Yeah, you can also utilize a number of other compounds along with niacin such

Rob:

as caffeine, which is another great way to mobilize, to mobilize fatty acids.

Rob:

Uh, you have Uh, compounds to increase circulation, such as citrulline

Rob:

and other nitric oxide precursors.

Rob:

Uh, and then there are a number of interesting products, such as Piperine,

Rob:

uh, black pepper extract, which actually helped to increase the body's, uh,

Rob:

thermal output of heat, uh, at a baseline.

Rob:

So, yeah, these products, when you sort of use them in combination,

Rob:

are, help the body to really sort of mobilize a lot of these toxins.

Rob:

Afterwards, what you normally want to do, uh, is utilize some sort of binder

Rob:

so that you can then get the toxins ready to be excreted from the body.

Rob:

And that is essentially in a nutshell, uh, how sauna allows you with or without other

Rob:

supplementation to start excreting a lot of these unwanted chemicals from the body.

Rob:

I think it's also important to say that these enviro toxins aren't just limited

Rob:

to heavy metals, but, uh, to plastics.

Rob:

Um, there was a study the other day that, uh, I think it was within the

Rob:

last two weeks, I have to double check the date, uh, microplastics

Rob:

and nanoplastics and ath, uh, atheroma and cardiovascular events.

Rob:

Yeah, I don't know if you saw it, but essentially 304 patients were

Rob:

enrolled in the study and of that 304, I believe it was 257 actually came

Rob:

out with elevated amounts of these microplastics in their coronary arteries

Rob:

that resulted in the buildup of these, of these atheromas which is basically,

Rob:

uh, a fatty deposit that is a, uh, a precursor to atherosclerotic plaque.

Rob:

Um, so it now looks like microplastics are actually contributing quite

Rob:

drastically to, to heart disease.

Rob:

So, wow.

Rob:

Just another reason, uh, that you want to try and sort of a, sort of

Rob:

steer clear, uh, from them as much as possible, and then also detox from them.

Rob:

As often as possible.

Rob:

It really is.

Rob:

Uh, quite a serious situation.

Rob:

And when, I mean, when you look at the fish supply, for example, in the

Rob:

sea, I mean, I'm sure you've seen those statistics it's, uh, yeah, you

Rob:

can, you can, yeah, you can barely eat fish anymore without being

Rob:

contaminated by either sort of mercurial or these microplastics as well.

Rob:

So.

Rob:

Yeah.

Rob:

Yeah, no, it's, it's definitely just another reason to, to utilize Sauna.

Rob:

I

Johannes:

couldn't have said it better, Rob.

Johannes:

I think that was very spot on.

Johannes:

Um, maybe two, you know, two other benefits that I think are really important

Johannes:

are, you know, the inflammation reduction.

Johannes:

You know, I think we're an anti inflammatory property, so to speak,

Johannes:

you know, I think inflammation, you know, tends to happen, I think, through

Johannes:

lifestyle, you know, at least if it's unwanted inflammation, um, and I think,

Johannes:

you know, infrared light, and that's what has actually been shown to reduce

Johannes:

some of that oxidative stress or those free radicals, essentially, in our body.

Johannes:

That's another one.

Johannes:

And I think pain management, you know, I think we had a chat yesterday as well.

Johannes:

And we, we sort of talked a lot about the fact that if someone is sick, like proper

Johannes:

sick and, you know, maybe it's actually chronic joint pain and, you know, due

Johannes:

to arthritis or, you know, other chronic inflammation in the body, you know,

Johannes:

mobility or movement is super important.

Johannes:

Um, however, you know, they literally can't get to that stage

Johannes:

because they're not fit enough or because they're in pain too much.

Johannes:

And I think.

Johannes:

It's really when an infrared sauna or a sauna in general can actually

Johannes:

provide a great starting point.

Johannes:

Um, for some people it's sort of really regaining the health, you know, because

Johannes:

obviously you're getting that detox and you're getting that cardiovascular workout

Johannes:

and it helps you reducing inflammations, you know, and I think that itself

Johannes:

makes a sauna a very, very interesting cocktail, you know, altogether.

Johannes:

If you are really suffering from, from some serious pain or

Johannes:

some serious different issues, you know, that's something we

Johannes:

also hear on a day to day basis.

Johannes:

And the last one is, uh, probably a mild form of hyperthermia you know,

Johannes:

for those that do know infrared therapy itself is perceived as

Johannes:

an alternative cancer treatment.

Johannes:

Um, you know, it really raises core temperatures up to 39, 40, 40.

Johannes:

1, five degrees Celsius.

Johannes:

So that's nothing we can recommend here.

Johannes:

And then also that Clearlight Saunas are designed for, however, if you use

Johannes:

a sauna for 45 to 50 minutes, you'll actually get a soft hyperthermia we

Johannes:

spoke about that earlier that your body really gets that artificial fever.

Johannes:

It helps really upregulate the immune system.

Johannes:

I mean, you know, you find calories as a consequence of that as well.

Johannes:

Um, but I think the bottom line is that you just give your cardiovascular

Johannes:

system and your immune system a really good spin, um, to make sure that,

Johannes:

you know, it, it, yeah, it's just getting, it's stronger than before.

Johannes:

And I really find that promising if someone is in chronic pain and they

Johannes:

know exercise is the way to go, um, you know, but they literally can't

Johannes:

because they're so much in pain.

Rob:

Yeah, and we definitely touched on that yesterday as well, but, um, the

Rob:

cardiovascular benefits just in terms of sauna being able to increase heart rate

Rob:

is definitely nothing to be understated as well, I mean you sit in a, in a infrared

Rob:

sauna and your, your heart rate steadily sort of climbs to 100, 110, 120 beats

Rob:

a minute without too much effort and that's, um, And that's basically what

Rob:

Peter Attia sort of points to as being this sort of zone two cardio zone, which

Rob:

is great for, uh, mitochondrial biogenesis and lifespan expansion in general.

Rob:

Um, when you sort of put the body into that stress state, it has to

Rob:

sort of build more mitochondria through, uh, a number of pathways.

Rob:

One of them being, uh, through a pathway called, uh, PGC1 alpha, which

Rob:

is, uh, mediated by sirtuin enzymes, which is what a lot in the longevity

Rob:

space are taking supplements, uh, like resveratrol and pterostilbene for.

Rob:

Uh, so again, sauna is a natural memetic of a lot of these supplements

Rob:

and is able to create a lot of the same, yeah, uh, outcome benefits.

Rob:

Uh, in that respect, uh, I think a lot of the, the pain relief comes down to,

Rob:

again, sauna being able to mediate a lot of these, uh, inflammatory cytokines, uh,

Rob:

which are signaling molecules that control inflammation, as well as what are called

Rob:

transcription factors, so, uh, I think they're, they're pretty big buzzwords,

Rob:

but things like, uh, TNF alpha and nucleofactor kappa beta, As well as your

Rob:

various interleukins, um, these are all molecules that help to, at one level or

Rob:

another, mediate and control inflammation.

Rob:

And, uh, ironically, you can shut down a lot of those pathways, uh, with

Rob:

the, uh, with the inclusion of heat.

Rob:

So, yeah.

Rob:

Pain is an essentially a, uh, a nerve response to, to inflammation signals.

Rob:

So if you can dampen down these signals, you can really lower, lower pain.

Rob:

And I think there's also a lot to be said about building pain resilience in

Rob:

something like a sauna in the same way that there is a cold shower, uh, or

Rob:

cold, cold thermogenesis in general.

Rob:

Um, when you put yourself into a state where you are acutely stressed, uh, you,

Rob:

well, this is more of a, I suppose, a thought than anything else, but you are

Rob:

able to just build more mental resilience.

Rob:

You're doing a hard thing, aren't you?

Rob:

And it sort of just creates that contrast between being in that acute

Rob:

situation and then everyday life.

Rob:

So.

Rob:

There's probably a psychological component in that sense to it as well.

Johannes:

100 percent and I think that is being picked up in studies as we speak.

Johannes:

I know that in 2021, there was a sort of soft hypothermia study in the US from Dr.

Johannes:

Ashley Mason.

Johannes:

I think she actually has worked with from North Africa before and

Johannes:

actually used the, you know, portable Clearlight to conduct that study.

Johannes:

You can see it in the, I think, two hour interview that they conducted together.

Johannes:

And she tried to measure the effects of, uh, hyperthermia or heat stress

Johannes:

on mental well being, I think, specifically for people, uh, that

Johannes:

were suffering from depression.

Johannes:

And I think there was a significant number that actually witnessed an improvement

Johannes:

in how they would describe their well being, um, you know, given the fact

Johannes:

that they are, depressed at times.

Johannes:

So I think there's a lot of prominent stuff happening.

Johannes:

That's also why I believe this, as you said, like heat and cold exposure

Johannes:

is really gaining a lot of momentum.

Johannes:

Sure.

Johannes:

It's good for your health, but it also really gives you that mental

Johannes:

clarity at the mental resilience, which I believe we all need on a

Johannes:

day to day basis at the moment.

Rob:

Yeah, no, I just looked it up and the mechanism behind that appears

Rob:

to be an increase in brave derived neurotrophic factor levels, uh, BDNF.

Rob:

So the same, same molecule that lion's mane mushroom increases in

Rob:

the body and that's Yeah, generally then linked to increased learning

Rob:

but also mood and memory retention.

Rob:

So that's It appears on the surface to be the main mechanism there.

Rob:

Yeah, I think that sort of generally wraps it up, uh, for the most part,

Rob:

uh, at least for an initial sort of foray sauna for people who are new

Rob:

to an especially infrared sauna.

Rob:

Um, is there anything else that you, uh, would like to touch on or do you think

Rob:

we've covered most things at this point?

Johannes:

I think we've covered a lot of things, I guess.

Johannes:

You know, I just really want to say for someone that is new to this topic,

Johannes:

I hope this wasn't too confusing, you know, I mean, I absolutely loved your

Johannes:

biochemistry with, uh, Rob, I think you, you're a genius in that level.

Johannes:

But what I specifically mean is those people that are looking at buying an

Johannes:

infrared sauna, it can be very confusing.

Johannes:

There's a lot of contradictory information when it comes to

Johannes:

the different manufacturers.

Johannes:

It's not regulated.

Johannes:

So, you know, we've seen companies really promote that they saw enough

Johannes:

help with vitamin D production, which is, you know, it couldn't

Johannes:

be further away from the truth.

Johannes:

So, I think it's just really important to sit down and sort of digest what we talked

Johannes:

about in terms of good heat exposure, EMF and ELF being very important and then sort

Johannes:

of really asking yourself the question of, you know, how can I really maximize

Johannes:

this device on a day to day basis?

Johannes:

You know, I love traditional saunas, but for me, they're absolutely

Johannes:

impractical on a day to day basis.

Johannes:

You know, it takes.

Johannes:

You know, an hour to an hour and a half to preheat and then I,

Johannes:

you know, another hour to use it.

Johannes:

So, you know, 2 to 3 hours, um, is what it would take.

Johannes:

And if you have the time, great.

Johannes:

Um, but I think a lot of the times in infrared sauna really provides more

Johannes:

value on a day to day basis, just because you're in and out and under an hour.

Johannes:

And the electricity costs are probably 20 percent compared to the traditional sauna.

Johannes:

So I think that's just something I really wanted to highlight because it's, you

Johannes:

know, with some of these things, it's really important that you not just buy

Johannes:

the device, but you actually use it.

Johannes:

And I feel like with saunas, that is even more true because it is a great

Johannes:

tool, but if you have one at home that you're not using, you know, it

Johannes:

doesn't really give you the benefits.

Johannes:

So I think that's true for a lot of things, but specifically with

Johannes:

saunas, I believe like, you know, you really have to find something that

Johannes:

works for you on a day to day basis.

Rob:

Definitely.

Rob:

Where can people find more about Clearlight, more about you?

Rob:

I believe you've got a podcast as well of your own.

Johannes:

Yeah.

Johannes:

Yeah.

Johannes:

We just launched, uh, we, we launched actually, it was called

Johannes:

the sauna show on YouTube.

Johannes:

Now it's called the HELSI show H E L S I.

Johannes:

Um, you can find us in the UK on infraredsauna.

Johannes:

co.

Johannes:

uk or you just type in Clearlight saunas.

Johannes:

Um, and if people want to find me for, Um, you know, for questions or ideas

Johannes:

or podcasts, um, you can find me on LinkedIn on Johannes Kettelhodt which

Johannes:

I'm sure Rob will link down below.

Johannes:

Um, but yeah, I look forward to hearing from you

Rob:

guys.

Rob:

Thank you so much for the time.

Rob:

We'll chat soon.

Johannes:

Thanks Rob.

Johannes:

Have a good one.

Rob:

Thank you for joining us for today's episode with

Rob:

Johannes and Clearlight Saunus.

Rob:

If you'd like to learn more about Clearlight or read up on any of

Rob:

the studies referenced in today's episode, then please click on the

Rob:

link in podcast description below to take you to today's show notes.

Rob:

Thank you again for listening.

Rob:

Till next time.

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About the Podcast

vP life
Discussions on the latest in longevity science, health and functional medicine
vP Life, brought to you by vitalityPRO, provides you with expert advice from leading voices in the functional and integrative medicine world.

Irrespective of the guest and topic, our discussions will aim to educate and provide you with the tools and information you need to create change in your life.

About your host

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Robert Underwood